Book of Mormon Borrowings from the New Testament

[_DrW]

Ludwig and bcuzbcuz,

Interesting comments regarding the (absence of) use of the term "Lucifer" in European language Bibles.

Checked it out in German:

Wie bist du vom Himmel gefallen, du schöner Morgenstern!

(How you have fallen from heaven, you beautiful morning star!)

[_Themis]

I was going to say this earlier and got distracted, but in my opinion ludwigm has some of the best posts I have read in this and other threads. Thanks for some great insights, which is usual for you.

[_DrW]

I was going to say this earlier and got distracted, but in my opinion ludwigm has some of the best posts I have read in this and other threads. Thanks for some great insights, which is usual for you.

Agree. Taking a little time to "get" Ludwig is well worth the effort. He is educated, experienced, has a sense of humor, and usually brings a unique (far away from the "bubble") viewpoint to the issues. Following up on his references can often lead to some interesting insights.

And while we are at it; Ludwig should have his "image privileges" restored.

[_ludwigm]

Lucifer...
My beloved character of "The Tragedy of Man"

LUCIFER
And what should please me? That certain substances,
Having been imbued with properties
Of whose existence You were ignorant
Until, perhaps, they revealed themselves to You,
(Though it may well be You had no power to change them)
Are now screwed up into these tiny globes
That chase, attract or else repel each other,
Awaking a few worms to consciousness
Till all of space is tilled at last, grows cold,
And only the indifferent slag is left?
If man’s at all observant he’ll concoct
Some hash like this with his poor instruments.
Having placed him in your cosmic kitchen
You now indulge his bungling awkwardness,
His godlike postures, his botched cookery.
But when he comes to spoil your favourite dish
You’ll flare up in a rage-too late by then.
But what can You expect from such a dabbler?
What is the point of the whole exercise?
A poem of self-praise is all it is -
You match it to this feeble hurdy-gurdy
And listen to the same old weary tune
Whine on and on in endless repetition.
Is it becoming to Your ripe old age
To play with this contraption fit for children?
A spark of life within a little clay,
A simulacrum, not a faithful likeness;
Free-will and fate in mutual pursuit:
It lacks all harmony, all sense of meaning.

My old hobby is translation. (without that hobby, I couldn't take part here...)

Most of the bibles show one - qualified - definition (the morning star, shining or beautiful):
- du schöner Morgenstern
- þú árborna morgunstjarna
- du strålande morgonstjärna
- du strålende Morgenstjerne

Some shows two attribute (shining & of sunrise):
- astre brillant, fils de l'aurore
- o stella mattutina, figliuol dell’aurora
- lucero de la manana, hijo de la aurora

The original (hebrew) text is "helel ben shachar" = "shining one, son of the dawn"
[{(איך נפלת משמים הילל בן שחר נגדעת לארץ חולש על גוים׃ .)}] if You want it...
I can not read and/or spell it - I highlighted the "helel" only.

How did this changed to "O Lucifer, son of the morning" - a name and a definition? This would be worth of a separate thread.

Mormons will never understand one word of it; sunday school and "seminary" doesn't make priests and/or ministers who learn (on college level) greek, latin, hebrew and Bible interpretation - by default.

The "Lucifer" related items on "fairlds.org" - for example - are transparent smoke screens. I read them as jokes.

Bad ones, by the way

[_ludwigm]

I have better jokes.

Most of them are graphic - and forbidden.
This site is one of less moderated.

Please propagandize this fact.

[_ludwigm]

... ludwigm has ...

... to "get" Ludwig ...

Please don't do this!

Answer my comments, and show my pictures - then I am happy forever.

[_DrW]

... ludwigm has ...

... to "get" Ludwig ...

Please don't do this!

Answer my comments, and show my pictures - then I am happy forever.

Okay.

Deal.
______________________________________

by the way: to "get" someone means to understand them on some personal level. (Not a bad thing.)

[_vessr]

I think I've not stressed enough my viewpoint.
I don't care KJV (one version of many English translations).

There are other languages than English. I think this can be a common start...
...

As one of Latin expressions (something other not known by Indian Jews):
Lucifer

Isaiah 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

2 Nephi 24:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!

No other Bible use the word Lucifer... It is from Latin, "morning star" for the Romans - and for all other folks' Bible.
Should I cite German, Hungarian or any other Bible? You can check any of them at "http://unbound.biola.edu/". They are not anti-mormon. They are not pro-mormon. They are as neutral as any religious text can.
No Lucifer. Translations of "morning star".
...

None of them use he word Lucifer - as it is the Latin name of Venus, the Morning Star.

Your Lucifer comment was profound, Ludwigm. I believe that means that all references to Lucifer in the Mormon religion are references that misstakely assume Lucifer shows up in those two verses.

[Guest]

Your Lucifer comment was profound, Ludwigm. I believe that means that all references to Lucifer in the Mormon religion are references that misstakely assume Lucifer shows up in those two verses.

Really?!? What exactly is so profound here and leads you to such a ridiculous conclusion?

Shall we look at the facts instead?

Lucifer is the latin translation of the hebrew noun הֵילֵל (heylel) which most assuredly appears in Isaiah in Hebrew. It also happens to be a fact that the latin word lucifer was commonly used and understood in English when Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.

It is surprising that an expert translator such as ludwigm would state that the best representation of this word should be "morning star". If he had spent even a few minutes looking into the matter, he would have discovered that this hebrew noun heylel can yield a deeper meaning than how it was simply rendered in Greek. As it turns out, heylel is most likely derived from the root hebrew verb הָלַל (halal). halal has a number of meanings including to praise, to shine, to make a show, to foolishly boast, to rave, to be mad, and so on. If one were to try to capture all the possible meanings here and make a perfect translation, you would render a list that included "the foolish boasting one", "the shining one", "the mad one", "the performing one", "the praising one" and so on.

Another problem with this argument is the implication that the KJB was translated from the Latin Vulgate. This was not the case in fact. And even if it were true, there would be several references to Lucifer in the KJB (instead there is just this single reference) as there are in the Latin Vulgate. It just so happened that the word Lucifer had been adopted into English (as is common) and the usage here was appropriate (this is the only time this noun appears here in hebrew). The same could be said about Joseph Smith's day.

Given that information, it seems that using lucifer here is very consistent with the era and English that Joseph Smith spoke. It certainly connotates just as much meaning as "morning star" would in this instance. And there would have definitely been a hebrew noun there that required translation.

[_Bazooka]

It also happens to be a fact that the latin word lucifer was commonly used and understood in English when Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.

What evidences are you basing this statement on?