Transparency in Church Finances

[_maklelan]

The church keeps its cards close to its chest for different reasons, and to hide improper administration of funds or exorbitant salaries is not one of them. It is true that I can only tell you to trust me, but I'm not going to start rattling off statistics that were told to me in confidence. I don't want to attract any attention for this, so I'm not saying anything beyond this: the stipend for GAs and members of the Twelve is only enough to cover the cost of living. I did not say it was 30,000, I said it was about a tenth ( a very general and non-specific range) of what y'all were saying. As costs fluctuate the amount alloted to the GAs also fluctuates. Most of you (if not all) probably make more from your jobs than they are given in their stipend. The church owns several businesses (like the largest cattle ranch in the country--in Florida, by the way) from which they earn plenty of money to pay for malls and what not. If you really want to believe that a dime of tithing is going into that project then nothing I can ever show you will change your mind.

I could care less if they release numbers or not. If you don't trust the church then leave. If you don't want them to have your money then don't pay your tithing. I gladly pay my tithing because I have been richly blessed because of it. What they do with the money is between them and the Lord, and I don't worry about making sure I approve. If you do then there's nothing I am ever going to be able to show you that will make you trust the church any more than you do now. I'm bowing out of this thread because I've said all I'm going to say. I feel bad already because I cringe at the thought of my mission president asking me why I'm going around telling a bunch of anti-Mormons things that he shared with me in confidence. If that's not enough for you then I suggest you hold your speculative sources to the same requirements, unless of course you're more concerned with perpetuating your opinion than with finding out the truth.

[_harmony]

The church keeps its cards close to its chest for different reasons, and to hide improper administration of funds or exorbitant salaries is not one of them. It is true that I can only tell you to trust me, but I'm not going to start rattling off statistics that were told to me in confidence. I don't want to attract any attention for this, so I'm not saying anything beyond this: the stipend for GAs and members of the Twelve is only enough to cover the cost of living. I did not say it was 30,000, I said it was about a tenth ( a very general and non-specific range) of what y'all were saying. As costs fluctuate the amount alloted to the GAs also fluctuates. Most of you (if not all) probably make more from your jobs than they are given in their stipend. The church owns several businesses (like the largest cattle ranch in the country--in Florida, by the way) from which they earn plenty of money to pay for malls and what not. If you really want to believe that a dime of tithing is going into that project then nothing I can ever show you will change your mind.

I could care less if they release numbers or not. If you don't trust the church then leave. If you don't want them to have your money then don't pay your tithing. I gladly pay my tithing because I have been richly blessed because of it. What they do with the money is between them and the Lord, and I don't worry about making sure I approve. If you do then there's nothing I am ever going to be able to show you that will make you trust the church any more than you do now. I'm bowing out of this thread because I've said all I'm going to say. I feel bad already because I cringe at the thought of my mission president asking me why I'm going around telling a bunch of anti-Mormons things that he shared with me in confidence. If that's not enough for you then I suggest you hold your speculative sources to the same requirements, unless of course you're more concerned with perpetuating your opinion than with finding out the truth.

Tell him you were having a discussion with tithe paying temple recommend holders, and maybe then you won't have to feel guilty about something you haven't told us anyway. You say we're concerned with finding out the truth. That's the problem in a nutshell, Mak. We don't get the truth. If we had the truth, as in an annual transparent financial statement, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead, we get stonewalled. And the biggest question is: why? If they have nothing to hide, why are they hiding it? If everything is aboveboard, then why are they hiding it?

I've always heard the GA's were paid out of the for-profit business profits. Now you imply they're paid with tithing funds. That alone would be cleared up, if we had a transparent financial statement. Patronizing us with "trust me" just reminds me of why I don't trust anyone who says "trust me".

[_ajax18]

Most of you (if not all) probably make more from your jobs than they are given in their stipend.

I don't think so. Do you realize how small a percentage of the population makes more than $300k. Add in all the perks and free things that come with the job and you start to see that what they've got is one heck of a deal.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Most of you (if not all) probably make more from your jobs than they are given in their stipend.

Yeah right. Gordon B Hinckley and the rest of the 15 probably wear more on their backs at General Conference than I could make in a year.

[_Who Knows]

I've always heard the GA's were paid out of the for-profit business profits. Now you imply they're paid with tithing funds. That alone would be cleared up, if we had a transparent financial statement.

Mak is referring to this 'stipend' that the GA's receive - that it's out of tithing funds.

However, Mak is conveniently leaving out all the other sources of income they receive. You know all those for-profit businesses the church owns? Guess who sits on the boards of directors? Guess how much they get paid for sitting on those boards?

[_harmony]

I've always heard the GA's were paid out of the for-profit business profits. Now you imply they're paid with tithing funds. That alone would be cleared up, if we had a transparent financial statement.

Mak is referring to this 'stipend' that the GA's receive - that it's out of tithing funds.

However, Mak is conveniently leaving out all the other sources of income they receive. You know all those for-profit businesses the church owns? Guess who sits on the boards of directors? Guess how much they get paid for sitting on those boards?

I was told the stipend came out of the profits. And I thought Pres Kimball told all the GA's that they weren't going to sit on boards anymore?

[Physics Guy]

The church keeps its cards close to its chest for different reasons, and to hide improper administration of funds or exorbitant salaries is not one of them. It is true that I can only tell you to trust me, but I'm not going to start rattling off statistics that were told to me in confidence. I don't want to attract any attention for this, so I'm not saying anything beyond this: the stipend for GAs and members of the Twelve is only enough to cover the cost of living. I did not say it was 30,000, I said it was about a tenth ( a very general and non-specific range) of what y'all were saying. As costs fluctuate the amount alloted to the GAs also fluctuates. Most of you (if not all) probably make more from your jobs than they are given in their stipend. The church owns several businesses (like the largest cattle ranch in the country--in Florida, by the way) from which they earn plenty of money to pay for malls and what not. If you really want to believe that a dime of tithing is going into that project then nothing I can ever show you will change your mind.

I could care less if they release numbers or not. If you don't trust the church then leave. If you don't want them to have your money then don't pay your tithing. I gladly pay my tithing because I have been richly blessed because of it. What they do with the money is between them and the Lord, and I don't worry about making sure I approve. If you do then there's nothing I am ever going to be able to show you that will make you trust the church any more than you do now. I'm bowing out of this thread because I've said all I'm going to say. I feel bad already because I cringe at the thought of my mission president asking me why I'm going around telling a bunch of anti-Mormons things that he shared with me in confidence. If that's not enough for you then I suggest you hold your speculative sources to the same requirements, unless of course you're more concerned with perpetuating your opinion than with finding out the truth.

That's fine, Mak, and I appreciate you withdrawing your now completely unsubstantiated claim that the Church's finances are totally "on the up-and-up." If you refuse to offer what evidence you have (and evidence which you claim totally exonerates the Church), then you leave us little choice but to rely on the evidence we *do* have, which includes all of the things I have already listed. I don't know why you feel all of this stuff needs to be a big secret, but it does seem awfully suspicious.

Let me break it down for you, Maklelan. I *want* to believe what you are telling me. I think what your MP told you stands a good chance of being true. But the scales of evidence are not tipping in your favor. I have two sides providing me with anecdotal evidence:

Pro-Church = Makelan
Anti-Church = RfM Posters "FCI," and "Flew the Coop" (whose stories complimented each other); also, our own Runtu (who worked in the COB) has verified some of the stuff they've said.

So, given these two sets of anecdotal stories, who should I believe? I guess I could count your MP as being another source, but you refuse to cough up the full story...

On top of this anecdotal evidence, I have a long string of documented evidence, dating clear back to stuff such as the Kirtland Bank showing that the Church rather routinely bungles the finances....

I am very sorry, Mak, but I think your argument is very shaky. I would appreciate more details from you... Actually, the more I think about it, the more I suspect that the material you refuse to reveal is purely faith-based, i.e., your MP told you something like, "The Brethren have a prayer circle each day wherein they bless the Church's finances, and this is why it is kept secret, since we do not cast our pearls before swine." Is that what you were told?

[_moksha]

The church keeps its cards close to its chest for different reasons... I'm bowing out of this thread because I've said all I'm going to say.

I wish you were not bowing out, because now you will have all of us wondering about possible reasons the Church wishes to keep its financial cards close to its chest.

[_asbestosman]

Most of you (if not all) probably make more from your jobs than they are given in their stipend.

I probably do, but I also probably have more risks than they do. While I happen to have a good company health insurance plan for me and my family, most people in the church do not. My parents do not. Furthermore I do not earn enough from my salary to be a home owner anytime soon. Even with my wife working it's still crazy to think about buying a home. Frankly I'm scared to try because if I get laid off or injured then we're in big trouble. Do GA's have to worry about that? That's why I made my comment about the law of consecration.

If you can promise that I will get healthy food, a decent home, health care for my family, etc, then I will gladly give up the rest of my stuff. I'll even be happy to live in Chile for a few years if it means my family will certainly be provided for--especially if you guarantee I get Monday evenings for family time. Yes that may be a sacrifice for some of the very talented lawyers, doctors, etc, but for me it would be wonderful to remove more of the uncertainty than comes from my job. I've never heard of a GA getting laid off. I have only heard of them getting excommunicated, but I think that's pretty easy to avoid. You yourself already mentioned the strict rules they live by to make that more difficult.

I could care less if they release numbers or not. If you don't trust the church then leave.

I don't care about the numbers either. I have no problem trusting God's annointed and feel no need to steady the ark by watching church finances.

[_Mercury]

The church keeps its cards close to its chest for different reasons... I'm bowing out of this thread because I've said all I'm going to say.

I wish you were not bowing out, because now you will have all of us wondering about possible reasons the Church wishes to keep its financial cards close to its chest.

Mac has already proved to be counterproductive in discussing church finances. Just read my sig.