Is hell enough as punishment?

[Guest]

Yes Tobin, because when the Bible says 600k some odd men above the age 20, with their wives, kids, and flocks, it is not reasonable to extrapolate a population size based on standard distributions. Instead we should all know that it is an non literal that really meant 6 males, 8 females, 14 children, two dozen sheep, 4 kid goats, a milk cow, and two braying asses. One named Tobin, the other Subgenius.

And as sub would say, the truth of this non literal is self evident to the reader.

[_Bazooka]

Exodus 12:37
37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.

Also just symbolic?

So the exodus was what: 4 guys, 3 gals, 5 oxen, 16 sheep, and a donkey?

Symbolic is not literal. More of a description of the people. Saved by God, as a people, as Noah was (600) in a great numbers (X 1000). 1000 is used throughout the Old Testament to signify a great number. 1000 years = a long time, not literally 1000 years. Etc.

I can totally see how 'six hundred thousand on foot that were men...' is meant symbolically to translate as 'Noah walked about for quite a bit with a few others'. Totally see that.

A bit like how the story of Adam and Eve is not literal, but merely symbolic of how evolution works, right?

[_Themis]

as opposed to a figurative truth??
can you provide an example where a literal truth and figurative truth are in opposition?...or exist at all?...truth is truth, is it not?

Truth is in the proposition. I take it that when madeleine used the term literal truth she meant truths that are true for everyone. God exists would be one such literal truth claim. You could also call it an objective truth. A subjective truth would be one that is not true at all times or not necessarily true for everyone. An example would be "I liked the movie".

let me guess, the word for the day is "literal"

that's the word that was used by madeleine. Are you having trouble understanding what it means?

So, your position is that atheists don't have a literal view of the scriptures?...i agree in a s much as atheists have no view at all...but as for their criticism of the scriptures they are wholly dependent on a literal view of the scriptures.....even though no one really understands why they would have any view in the first place...aside from the atheist's propensity to be masturbatory in public.

I see your unchristian attitudes coming through again. Atheists certainly have a view of the Bible. I would think the most common view is man-made writings. Like a bunch of Greek stories about their God's you don't want to accept as literally true. I think the more vocal atheist focus's on the biblical literalist because there are a number of them, and they are the most dangerous to the well being of humanity. At least in places like the US.

[_madeleine]

Symbolic is not literal. More of a description of the people. Saved by God, as a people, as Noah was (600) in a great numbers (X 1000). 1000 is used throughout the Old Testament to signify a great number. 1000 years = a long time, not literally 1000 years. Etc.

I can totally see how 'six hundred thousand on foot that were men...' is meant symbolically to translate as 'Noah walked about for quite a bit with a few others'. Totally see that.

A bit like how the story of Adam and Eve is not literal, but merely symbolic of how evolution works, right?

Look at this way. Noah and his family were saved by God. When describing the number of people saved in the Exodus, the reference is made to Noah, who was also saved by God, the action is Salvation, not walking.

The army described via symbolism is saved by God, created by a holy action of God. The people saw themselves as God's chosen, and everything centered on God's action (salvation) for them.

I didn't think it was so hard!

[_madeleine]

Based on this logic (if one may use this word at all...) Exodus 23:19 - "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk" - means
1. Don't marry a mother and her daughter (at least at the same time...)
2. Make for yourself a very inconvenient kitchen, where milky an meaty vessels even may not be put to the same shelf (don't care the inconvenience, women do it...)

I used to read both interpretation.
There are more - in X-Files...

I am sorry. A certain level of stupidity is necessary; it makes the life comestible . Above that level... yes, above that level we can found Sharia, witch hunt, McCarthyism, Stalinism, and communism called free market capitalism (copyright bcspace, talking about United Order).

No, thank You.

Poets, writers, sculptors, painters, stage managers may use symbols.
God may not; especially in his important messages to the humanity - or to me, if I may mention my littleness...

Not sure if you're addressing my post or not. Rather Nightlion ramble-y, but perhaps you can explain the amazing leaps of "logic'....in your post.

[_Tobin]

Yes Tobin, because when the Bible says 600k some odd men above the age 20, with their wives, kids, and flocks, it is not reasonable to extrapolate a population size based on standard distributions. Instead we should all know that it is an non literal that really meant 6 males, 8 females, 14 children, two dozen sheep, 4 kid goats, a milk cow, and two braying asses. One named Tobin, the other Subgenius.

And as sub would say, the truth of this non literal is self evident to the reader.

madeleine already tried to help you with this one. You wouldn't listen to her, so I see no point in trying to explain it to you.

[_Bazooka]

Look at this way. Noah and his family were saved by God. When describing the number of people saved in the Exodus, the reference is made to Noah, who was also saved by God, the action is Salvation, not walking.

The army described via symbolism is saved by God, created by a holy action of God. The people saw themselves as God's chosen, and everything centered on God's action (salvation) for them.

I didn't think it was so hard!

Are you one of those people that can stare hard at a page of coloured dots and see 3D images appear?

(I like your style maddy, even if I don't agree with you)

[_SteelHead]

So it is all figurative fiction? Unevidenced by geology, biology, anthropology, archaeology, nor contextual analysis.


I should believe it over the bhagavada gita or the yasna haptanghaiti because?

[Guest]

Look at this way. Noah and his family were saved by God. When describing the number of people saved in the Exodus, the reference is made to Noah, who was also saved by God, the action is Salvation, not walking.

The army described via symbolism is saved by God, created by a holy action of God. The people saw themselves as God's chosen, and everything centered on God's action (salvation) for them.

I didn't think it was so hard!

Are you one of those people that can stare hard at a page of coloured dots and see 3D images appear?

(I like your style maddy, even if I don't agree with you)

Those 3D laser images? I see nada.

Eta: I like your style too. I'm ok with not agreeing. :) I don't spend the time here hoping to get everyone "on board". Lol. Understanding, while disagreeing, is a good place to be in my opinion.

[_madeleine]

So it is all figurative fiction? Unevidenced by geology, biology, anthropology, archaeology, nor contextual analysis.


I should believe it over the bhagavada gita or the yasna haptanghaiti because?

Hi, of course, reason should not be set aside, neither should faith. They work together. I accept the evidence of experience, and the Jewish experience, celebrated still today, carries with it a witness of the ages.

Archaeology adds to the witness of history. The point of the Bible is God is present in history. For Christians, even more so when God Incarnated and entered history. Which is not symbolic, but very literal.

So faith and reason work together. Faith without reason is an extreme. Reason without faith is atheism, which is an extreme, at the other end of the scale.

At any rate, there is a literal truth in the symbolism. God saved a people, literally. Telling the story does not have the point of statistics and numbers, but conveys God's literal action and the people's literal response. Loyalty to God or infidelity (sin).