What is the Purpose of Life?

[_Runtu]

Roger,

At what point in any of the scriptures is there not a recognized authority figure present?

Jason,

That claim is laughable. Authority comes by the laying on of hands, with a clear line traceing back to Christ himself. 1 Tim 4:14


Gaz

That's just it, Gaz. Protestantism asserts that all believers are recognized authority figures. Seems less laughable than the idea that a common funerary text somehow morphed into Abraham's diary.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Gaz, you ask:

At what point in any of the scriptures is there not a recognized authority figure present?

Gaz, the presence of an "authority figure" is traditional at all/most formal gatherings. They are recognized as the "chair person" to facilitate a number of purposes. Church meetings--of the past, or the present--are no exception.

However there is no reason to think, or evidence to believe, that "God" granted "exclusive authority" to anyone to speak above another as "God's" mouth-piece. Except that is by the teachings of individuals/groups to others of their superior position in the Universe to "exclusively represent "God" and all things of "God" to humanity." IMSCO, an ominous, impossible task to assume unless in extreme narcissistic delusion.

I do not make that assertion in a manner other than as a caution to not misunderstand the complete, unbiased, unprejudiced, cause-and-effect, mechanics of life in its totality--physical and spiritual. And, the environments that sustains both the physical and the spiritual, they are inseperably connected.

It is my seriously considered opinion that to understand "God" as proponed, generally speaking, in the Old Testament is to misunderstand the "God" introduced in the New Testament. "God" as Jesus presented 'him' little resembles the "God" Moses introduced.

This might lead one to consider as Joshua did, "...choose ye this day..." For me, Jesus trumps all! And he needs no exclusive representation. It's all in the books. Open and available to all, no secret signs, oaths, rituals or fees... Warm regards, Roger

[_Gazelam]

The entire structure of the church and its priesthood is to make all men prophets and give them the ability to stand in the presence of God as Moses did. (Num. 11:24-29, D&C 84:19-24.)

This being said and understood, Gods house is a house of order, and there is a leader apointed who holds the Keys of the priesthood and who is appointed to lead and direct the church. (D&C 132:7-8.)

Remember that is was Christ himself who appeared to the Prophets of the Old Testament. To think that the God of the Old Testament was some other God than that of the New Testament is foolishness on your part. (John 8:58.)

That God separates Men as leaders among his people is evidenced in numerous ways in the story of Moses, such as the pride of Miriam (Num. 12.), The Korah rebellion (Num. 16.) and in the appointment of Aaron (Num. 17.)

Christ appointed and instructed the Apostles, who in turn organized his Church. All of this was done in order and through divine revelation. It is Christs church and he himself directs it. Now as in times of Old.

Gaz

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Gaz, from your post:

Remember that is was Christ himself who appeared to the Prophets of the Old Testament. To think that the God of the Old Testament was some other God than that of the New Testament is foolishness on your part. (John 8:58.)

"...foolishness..."? It might well be??? Then on the other hand, it might be that you have not taken into account the adjectives used in the Old Testament and the New Testament to describe "God" in those diferent settings. Also the character differences attributed in the two books, in their time and place. Remember too, there is a 4,000+ year spread between Genesis and the writings of Mark.

Let me correct myself. When saying there is a different "God" in each of these places...what i meant to convey--thinking you would understand--was that mans' understanding/perception of the same "God" differs. I hope you can see the differences??

This is not suggesting "God's" purpose for humanity has changed. It has not, as i understand man's purpose as presented, demonstrated and illustrated by Jesus in his numerous parables and the stories told. My favourites being "The Good Samaritan", "The Woman at the Well" and the "adultress insident".

His "purpose" IMSCO, is to have humanity living together in peace, harmony, goodwill and, in service to each other. Without exploitation, intimidation, fear or mastery. Do you agree?

I wonder how proponing the necessity of having "God's" authority to orchestrate HIS will, when it is clearly, and simply understood, moves humanity in that purposeful direction? IF their are other purposes that supercede the above, what might they be?

Thanks for continuing this dialogue. Warm regards, Roger

[_Gazelam]

I think that what is being misunderstood is the world view of authority as opposed to the Godly view of authority. To Paraphrase from pg.268-269 of Rough Stone Rolling by Bushman:

"..... High priests held "the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church." Aaronic priests held "the keys of the ministering of angels" and administered ordinances like baptism. People did not "submit" to the priesthood in the sense of yielding their wills to higher authority. They "received" it, as an 1832 revelation said:

All they who receive this priesthood receiveth me, saith the Lord, for he that
receiveth my servants receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth my
Father, and he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father's kingdom.
Therefore, all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

Under priesthood authority, as outlined in the revelations, the exercise of power was to be wholly benevolent, receiving and giving, not ordering and submitting. Government was to bless people. Properly exercised, authority eliminated coercion. Priests in this kingdom would rule like God himself - without force. "Thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever." Joseph Smith is famous for saying that he governed his people by a thread. "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Your problems with Old and New Testament God may stem from a very short account of the pre-Moses God. Gods dealing with a stiffnecked Israel who were incapable of bearing the fulnes of the gospel are different than those of the Son of God seeking to raise the people up again to the fulness of the Gospel.

I agree with your goal of God for us, and that is the entire purpose of the Authority he gives to his servants to administer the gospel. This was achieved to its fullest extent with the City of Enoch (Moses 7:18-69, D&C 38:4) and to a somewhat lesser degree among the Nephite people (Book of Fourth Nehi)

Gaz

[_harmony]

Joseph Smith is famous for saying that he governed his people by a thread. "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

As with most of Joseph's teachings, this one has been kicked to the curb. Mormons no longer govern themselves and haven't for generations.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Gaz, i'm pasting my previous comment:

His "purpose" IMSCO, is to have humanity living together in peace, harmony, goodwill and, in service to each other. Without exploitation, intimidation, fear or mastery. Do you agree?

I wonder how proponing the necessity of having "God's" authority to orchestrate HIS will, when it is clearly, and simply understood, moves humanity in that purposeful direction? IF their are other purposes that supercede the above, what might they be?

You tend to "agree" if i read you correctly... Then will you illustrate to me appreciable differences in the lives of Mormons, in comparison to the lives of all other folks attempting to live good lives in everyday responses to whatever...

Can you demonstrate how Priesthood Authority manifests itself in such a recognizable difference between those that have "it" and those that don't that, an unbiased 'spectator' could readily see distinctive differences? Sort of like walking through a neighborhood and recognizing the differing TLC applied to each person's yard-care, and without hesitation concluding one has THE touch.

You know what i'm saying? Now going to your post to paste... TTFN...

[_Roger Morrison]

Harmony, thanks for your comment. Wonder if that thread is the same one the US Constitution will hang by/from???

Gaz, you say, quoting Bushman:

"..... High priests held "the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church." Aaronic priests held "the keys of the ministering of angels" and administered ordinances like baptism. People did not "submit" to the priesthood in the sense of yielding their wills to higher authority. They "received" it, as an 1832 revelation said:

All they who receive (understanding of my two new love commandments) receiveth me, saith the Lord, for he that
receiveth such understanding, receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth my
Father, and he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father's kingdom.
Therefore, all that my Father hath shall be given unto him. (Bolded and modified by Roger)

I've taken the liberty to insert other words into the "revelation" that, IMSCO, is an inclusive, more Christ-like interpretation of the "revelation". As opposed to the "excluding" more clerical, sectarian LDS understanding.

I respectfully ask you to consider the word "keys". That useage seems to suggest "blessings" are under lock-and-key?? And, as such are only available to a select group issued the "keys". Do you really think that to be true? That "God" who brings sun and rain to all and allows wheat and weeds to grow together, withholds "blessings" from the human family by edict of "keys"?

When i ask by what authority does Bushman proclaim his 'truth'? I do so only rhetorically as i know your answer. Which is not in the least convincing of authenticity beyond the group that espouses it.

What i am suggesting, there is no authority "God" given to one chosen group, be they Jews, Mormons, Catholics or others claiming such favour. Nor to any individual be they Moses, a Pope, Joseph Smith, GB Hinckley or Warren Jeffs.

"Authority" is legislated by man for man, and as such serves man's purpose, not "God's"! Warm regards, Roger

[_Gazelam]

Bible DICTIONARY
Prophet
The work of a Hebrew prophet was to act as God’s messenger and make known God’s will. The message was usually prefaced with the words “Thus saith Jehovah.” He taught men about God’s character, showing the full meaning of his dealings with Israel in the past. It was therefore part of the prophetic office to preserve and edit the records of the nation’s history; and such historical books as Joshua, Judges, 1 and 2 Sam., 1 and 2 Kings were known by the Jews as the former Prophets. It was also the prophet’s duty to denounce sin and foretell its punishment, and to redress, so far as he could, both public and private wrongs. He was to be, above all, a preacher of righteousness. When the people had fallen away from a true faith in Jehovah, the prophets had to try to restore that faith and remove false views about the character of God and the nature of the Divine requirement. In certain cases prophets predicted future events, e.g., there are the very important prophecies announcing the coming of Messiah’s kingdom; but as a rule prophet was a forthteller rather than a foreteller. In a general sense a prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost, as in Num. 11: 25-29; Rev. 19: 10.


There are Laws of God, and as such there is a Lawgiver and a representative of God on the Earth. For you to proclaim that there is no authority of God is at the same time to declare you do not believe scripture.

[_Roger Morrison]

Gaz, you say:

There are Laws of God, and as such there is a Lawgiver and a representative of God on the Earth. For you to proclaim that there is no authority of God is at the same time to declare you do not believe scripture bold added.

Gaz, that last clause, bolded, is a preposterous statement!! How could You make such an assumption??? After all of our exchanges... I do believe some scripture, and do not believe others. Are you suggesting if one believes 'some' they must believe 'all'?

The "Bible Dictionary" simply defines "Prophet" according to the JEW'S understanding. It helps one understand "Prophet" as they used the term. Read it closely, you won't find the words "God's authority" used once. The last line, "In a general sense a prophet is any one who has a testimony of Jesus Christ..." Seems about right. Warm regards, Roger