Son of the Morning

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Son of the Morning

Post by _Gazelam »

Son of the Morning

“It must needs be that there is an opposition in all things.”

So says the Prophet Lehi in his great discourse on the lord’s plan of salvation. As there is righteousness, so also is there wickedness. As there is light, so also is there darkness. Life and Death, Love and Hate, corruption and incorruption, without these “all things must have vanished away” (2 Nephi 2:10-13.)

In vs.16 he goes on to say “Wherefore the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.” And finally vs.17 “ And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.”

The question presented here is then, what is an Angel? And how can an angel become a devil? The Apostle Paul tells us angels were created by God. “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by , and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Colossians 1: 16-17)

From this we discern that God also created the Angels. God also speaks of them in regards to the foundation of the world; When the Lord speaks to Job out of the whirlwind “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?” (Job 38:4) Having there established a point prior to the creation of the Earth, the Lord spoke of the Sons of God: “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.” (Job 38:7) There were beings, referred to as the sons of God, before the creation of the earth.

In the epistle of Paul to the Ephesians is captured the spirit of this truth as the apostle records, “….I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven….is named…” (Ephesians 3:14-15) There is a family in heaven, and it existed before the earth was made.

Both Old and New Testament scripture testify of this premise. In the Old Testament the Prophet Jeremiah records the circumstances of his call to the ministry. “Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, before I formed the in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth from the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:4-5) This is supported by the chief apostle, Peter, who makes reference to this concept and adds emphasis to the idea that our characteristics at birth are in compensation for our actions in a pre-earth life estate, saying that some persons are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the father…”(1 Peter 1:2)

While reading the book of Genesis Joseph Smith received further light and revelation regarding these things, as recorded in the book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price; “……for I, the Lord God, created all things…..spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the Earth… for in heaven created I them…all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.” Moses 3:5,7)

In like manner we learn in considerable detail from a great vision originally recorded by Abraham. Of “our Father which art in heaven”(Matthew 6:9), the ”whole family in heaven” (Ephesians 3:15), and “the sons of God” (Job 38:7), Abraham records the following:
“ Now the Lord had shown unto me Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; fro he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those that were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.” (Abraham 3: 22-26)

A modern Apostle helps us capture the meaning of Abraham’s vision.

“Abraham used the name intelligences to apply to the spirit children of the Eternal Father. The intelligence or spirit element became intelligences after the spirits were born as individual entities. (Abra. 3:22-24.) Use of this name designates both the primal element from which the spirit offspring were created and also their inherited capacity to grow in grace, knowledge, power, and intelligence itself….” (Bruce R McConkie, Mormon Doctrine p.750)

In the literal sense, the expression spirit birth has reference to the birth of the spirit in pre-existence. Spirits are actually born as the offspring of a Heavenly Father, a glorified and exalted Man. (p.750)

Men and Angels are the offspring of God. They are born to him in a pre-earth existence. God, angels, and men are of the same race. (p.217)
The angels are children of the Father in heaven. Because angels are of the same race as man and God, it is with perfect logic that in the pure language spoken by Adam, they were designated as Anglo-man.” (p.37)

In talking about resurrected persons, “children of the resurrection,” Jesus equates the angels and the children of God. The faithful scribe, Luke, records: “… for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God…” (Luke 20:36.)

In pre-earth life God’s creations appeared somewhat as they do in the flesh. In The Book of Mormon the Brother of Jared was accorded the singular privilege of seeing the lord two millennia prior to his earthly ministry. In introducing himself the Lord said, “Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ…” (Ether 3:14) Then the Lord told his beholder, “…Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.” (Ether 3:15) Then the lord told him what spirits look like before they are in the flesh. Their fleshy temples are after the similitude of the spirit. “Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.” (Ether 3:16.)

Angels are in form like man, as they have appeared throughout the ages. The most universally accepted accounts of such appearances are biblical.

When Abraham entertained three angels on the plains of Mamre, it is recorded, “…he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him.” (Genesis 18:2) Of the two angels (Genesis 19:1) who visited Lot’s home in Sodom, the local residents inquired, “Where are the men which came in to thee this night?” (Genesis 19:5)

Daniel described Gabriel as he came to him as being in the form of a man: “…behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.” (Daniel 8:15)

All four Gospel accounts of the women at the sepulcher of the risen lord describe “the angel of the lord descended from heaven” (Matthew 28:2) as being in the form of a man. “… They saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment.” (Mark 16:5) In the gospel of John the women were pictured as seeing two angels. (John 20:12.) Luke records the same instance: “two men stood by them in shining garments.” (Luke 24:4.) Although in form like men, there was a glory that attended this angel: “His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow.” (Matthew 28:3)

It was of these Holy beings that Satan was once numbered. A son of the Father, who held authority and a degree of glory, in the grand council of heaven; “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy” (Job 38:7) What occurred at that meeting was an introduction to all the children of God of the Fathers great plan of salvation. A cause for joy indeed. An opportunity for all of the Fathers children to increase in intelligence and knowledge through obedience to the Fathers teachings. “And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God commanded them….” (Abraham 3:25) And also, to receive a physical body, which they did not at that time possess.

“And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.” (Abraham 3:27-28.)

This first estate is also spoken of in the epistle of Jude in vs.6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

A more detailed account is found in the book of Moses in chapter 4 “That Satan…..is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me saying- behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surly I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. But behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me- Father thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; And he became Satan, yea even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.” (Moses 4:1-4.)

An account of what followed this is found in the Book of Revelation. “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Revelation 12:7-9) And earlier in the chapter it reads “And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth…” (vs.4.) To those who followed Satan, the idea of the possibility of failure was too great for them to bear. We were at that meeting also, and that fact that we are here, and have received our physical bodies, means that we sided with Jesus the Christ.
For a glimpse into the misery of those who followed our rebellious brother we look to the gospel of Matthew, beginning with vs.28 “And when he was come to the other side of the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? Art thou come hither to torment us before the time? And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, if thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters….”

Modern Apostle Jeffrey R Holland, in his book “Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments” teaches “One of the “plain and precious” truths restored to this dispensation is that “the spirit and the body are the soul of man,” and that when the spirit and the body are separated, men and women “cannot receive a fullness of joy.” Certainly that suggests something of the reason why obtaining a body is so fundamentally important to the plan of salvation in the first place, why sin of any kind is such a serious matter (namely, because its automatic consequence is death, the separation of the spirit from the body and the separation of the spirit and the body from God), and why the resurrection of the body is so central to the great and abiding and eternal triumph of Christ’s atonement. We do not need to be a herd of demonically possessed swine charging down the Gaderene slopes toward the sea to understand that a body is the great prize of this mortal life, and that even a pig’s will do for those frenzied premortal spirits that rebelled and to this day remain dispossessed in their first unembodied estate.”
And the Savior said to the seventy “….I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.” (Luke 10:18.) Cast out from his home, never to receive exaltation, denied a physical body. He is damned in his progression, and is miserable because of this, and all who followed him likewise.
“Be Sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour…” (1 Peter 5:8.) He is angry with God, believing the plan unfair, believing he has been cheated. Because of this, he wish’s us all to fail, to destroy our future happiness. If he is denied a home in his Father’s kingdom, we will not have one either, if he has his way. For those who have had the experience of seeing these devils, they say they are filled with hatred, and wish our destruction.”… Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat...” (Luke 22:31)

The only power that Satan has over us though is that which we allow him to have. The Savior taught: “There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man” (Mark 7:15)

The prophet Alma spoke of resisting Satan. “Yea, and I would exhort you, my brethren, that ye be watchful unto prayer continually, that ye may not be led away by the temptations of the devil, that he may not overcome you, that ye may not become his subjects at the last day; for behold, he rewardeth you no good thing.”(Alma 34:39)

The war that began in heaven continues here. We fought then on the side of our Father in heaven and his Christ, and it remains up to us to choose for ourselves: to choose “…liberty and eternal life, through the great mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27)

Image
Last edited by Steeler [Crawler] on Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_MormonMendacity
_Emeritus
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:56 am

That is a complete meldown of logic.

Post by _MormonMendacity »

Gazelam wrote:It must needs be that there is an opposition in all things.

No it doesn't. It's not even reasonable, since the term "opposition" is subjective. There is no objective opposition to everything.

What's the opposition to woman?
What's the opposition to when you're floating in outer space?

You're trying to sing along with Joseph and put ultimate meanings on "things".

"Bad is the opposite of good." Talk about subjective!

Why don't you think? Why call me "mormonliar" and not think about what you're being fed by these manipulative people?

Joseph, masquerading as Lehi, said that "As there is light, so also is there darkness" but don't just buy into the nonsense, for chrissake, Gazelam!

Is darkness the opposite "of" light or in opposition "to" light?

I gotta believe you are smart enough to understand that Joseph made this stuff up and you are buying into a fraud. I'm hopeful you're smart enough to think your way through this -- even though some of your cohorts are obviously not.
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Mormonliar

Post by _Gazelam »

Mendacious : not truthful, lying (Webster's New World Dictionary, Pocket Books, 1990)

Job 2:9-10 (the whole of chp.2 actually)
9 ¶ Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Trial causes growth. This is a foundation in the Gospel.

2 Cor. 8:2
2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.


1 Pet 1:6-9
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

What you call a fraudulent doctrine is a tenant of the true faith, and only serves to show how far you have fallen from what once served to light your path.

It is called the refiners fire. ".....for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy. " (D&C 98:14) Christ himself went through the same process of trial and growth. That we must go through the same process of temptation and resistance to prove where we stand in the Law of truth and life is the foundational principle of the gospel. It is how the Father proves worthy those who will recieve all things.

And while we may trade pleasure for trial, in the end, we will live after the manner of happiness, and teach the principle of eternal happiness to others.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Post by _Runtu »

But this begs the question, Gaz: why is the refiner's fire necessary? Is there some other way to learn, or are we just going to take Joseph Smith's word for it?

What opposition in all things does is force people to choose between two opposing choices. It does not necessarily teach them right from wrong or help them grow.
_MormonMendacity
_Emeritus
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:56 am

Re: Mormonliar

Post by _MormonMendacity »

Gazelam wrote:Mendacious : not truthful, lying (Webster's New World Dictionary, Pocket Books, 1990)

Yup. There are lots of examples where Mormons have knowling lied. Hence the name.

Gazelam wrote:Job 2:9-10 (the whole of chp.2 actually)
9 ¶ Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Trial causes growth. This is a foundation in the Gospel.

I am sorry your God is so powerless to instill knowledge into his children without using death, pain and suffering. I also am sorry that a loving God would not accept all of his children, even those who used their brains in a way contrary to the many sheep who follow self-proclaimed prophets (that should be a red-flag, Gazelam).

I would actually think that a God who would give his children "free will" would rejoice in their using it. The establishing of arbitrary rules to make him happy seems more like the pique of a Greek god than a loving father.

Gazelam wrote:2 Cor. 8:2
2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

1 Pet 1:6-9
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

What you call a fraudulent doctrine is a tenant of the true faith, and only serves to show how far you have fallen from what once served to light your path.

Yet your "true faith" provides no better results in this life than "true disbelief" -- although "true faith" does bring more into the religious coffers than "true disbelief", that's a fact.

And -- I do not mean to be rude -- but as long as you have your dictionary handy, check out the difference between "tenant" and "tenet". It may have just been a typo on your part, but it's a common one and is good for the instruction. And if you're near a library, read some books like "The Mythmaker" by Hyam Maccoby or a variety of other books that point out the potential errors in the books you apparently trust for your consummate resources on truth. They might help you understand the mendacious nature of those writings.

Gazelam wrote:It is called the refiners fire. ".....for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy. " (D&C 98:14) Christ himself went through the same process of trial and growth. That we must go through the same process of temptation and resistance to prove where we stand in the Law of truth and life is the foundational principle of the gospel. It is how the Father proves worthy those who will recieve all things.

And while we may trade pleasure for trial, in the end, we will live after the manner of happiness, and teach the principle of eternal happiness to others.

Gaz

Assuming that you have something more than the words of other people about what will actually happen "in the end" you may be spending your mortal days devoted to a God as unable to deliver happiness and eternal salvation as Zeus was unable to deliver an actual lightning bolt.

You might want to consider that all the prophets have taught you to do is to follow them.
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Refiners Fire

Post by _Gazelam »

Image
Christ tempted in the Wilderness

Malachi 3:1-3

1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Why is a refiners fire necessary? In the words of Christ : "And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; " The reward we are dealing with is so great, so majestic, and of such great importance, that we must show to the Lord we are worthy of so great a responsibility. Is this refiners fire necessary? Christ himself had to pass through this life and fulfill the responsibility that was placed on his shoulders, a task so great none of us would have been able to pas through it. But Christ had shown in the prexistence that he was worthy of such a task. Others had proven themselves as well and were given other responsibilities, Abraham himself being set apart and ordained with the responsibility he had.

While false reports have been given by some declareing themselves to be men of God, the things I testify of have been declared by numerous prophets. Men the Holy Spirit testifies of. Both modern and ancient.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Re: Refiners Fire

Post by _Runtu »

Gazelam wrote:Image
Christ tempted in the Wilderness

Malachi 3:1-3

1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Why is a refiners fire necessary? In the words of Christ : "And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; " The reward we are dealing with is so great, so majestic, and of such great importance, that we must show to the Lord we are worthy of so great a responsibility. Is this refiners fire necessary? Christ himself had to pass through this life and fulfill the responsibility that was placed on his shoulders, a task so great none of us would have been able to pas through it. But Christ had shown in the prexistence that he was worthy of such a task. Others had proven themselves as well and were given other responsibilities, Abraham himself being set apart and ordained with the responsibility he had.

While false reports have been given by some declareing themselves to be men of God, the things I testify of have been declared by numerous prophets. Men the Holy Spirit testifies of. Both modern and ancient.

Gaz


So, really, what you're saying is that opposition is necessary because God said it is.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Runtu

Post by _Gazelam »

Say you had a family bussiness. You had three children between the ages of 30-38 and all three are willing to take over. How would you choose who to pass it on to?

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Re: Runtu

Post by _Runtu »

Gazelam wrote:Say you had a family bussiness. You had three children between the ages of 30-38 and all three are willing to take over. How would you choose who to pass it on to?

Gaz


Can one have experience without there being some kind of oppositional/Satan figure? Can one learn to choose by choosing one good over another good, or does evil have to enter into the equation? I sincerely don't get it. When I was a believing Mormon, the "opposition in all things" thing seemed self-evident and obvious. Not so much anymore.
_MormonMendacity
_Emeritus
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:56 am

Re: Runtu

Post by _MormonMendacity »

Runtu wrote:
Gazelam wrote:Say you had a family bussiness. You had three children between the ages of 30-38 and all three are willing to take over. How would you choose who to pass it on to?

Gaz


Can one have experience without there being some kind of oppositional/Satan figure? Can one learn to choose by choosing one good over another good, or does evil have to enter into the equation? I sincerely don't get it. When I was a believing Mormon, the "opposition in all things" thing seemed self-evident and obvious. Not so much anymore.

I think Gaz's question is a setup -- not in the evil way but setting a condition that is portrayed as immutable, and yet is not.

My answer to his question would be "all three." If some were upset because they did not get 100% of it then that is their work...not mine.

When I was on my mission one of my companions had a discussion about this in light of the notion that Jeus paid for all sin, whether or not the sinner accepted his atonement or not. He was convinced that this was the kind of infiinte atonement that Jesus had performed. I assumed it made sense at the time but I didn't understand it. The definition of sin was too vague for me to articulate -- and still is.
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
Post Reply