In retrospect, the thing that bothered me most

Post by **_MormonMendacity** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:42 am

...about the Book of Mormon is that Smith used props to give it credibility.

I've asked myself a lot whether I would have been able to stay if he had just received the Book of Mormon in a revelation. Could I have stayed if so much evidence against his translation skills had been missing?

If the story had been that an angel appeared to him and over the course of several weeks or months told Joseph the story of the early inhabitants of the Americas including Jesus-visit and all, I think it would not have bothered me as much. He would not have become such a conman to me.

Plates aren't necessary if you are reading the story in a magical stone or listening to the last survivor tell it.
If God can preserve the plates buried in a hill, he can surely eliminate the need to hide them.
You don't need witnesses to attest that they really saw the golden plates if the plates are not a prop that need to be authenticated.

So much circumstantial evidence is provided that it distracted from the essence of a potentially good allegory and moral. "God loves us all. He sent his son to everyone."

He could have even taken that farther and done a Book of Tao and a Book of Ivan...all delivered to him -- THE SEER who can SEE THINGS.

The plates, the witnesses, the intrigue and the lies all combined to be just too much for me.

I would have preferred to stay LDS and not caused my family such pain.

Anybody else?

Post by **_Gazelam** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:12 am

You forget that eventually Joseph no longer needed the stone, He began translating on his own. The stone was to train him to understand the language. Also I heard your comment on another thread regarding why the 116 pages were not retranslated (or maybe that was Porter), this was because God instructed him not to after witholding the plates from him for a time while Joseph repented of his wrongs.

Gaz

Post by **_Dr. Shades** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:29 am

I hear you, MormonMendacity, but even if the Book of Mormon was pulled off seamlessly like you describe there would still be the Kinderhook Plates, the Book of Abraham, polyandry, etc.

Post by **_Runtu** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:54 am

Dr. Shades wrote:I hear you, MormonMendacity, but even if the Book of Mormon was pulled off seamlessly like you describe there would still be the Kinderhook Plates, the Book of Abraham, polyandry, etc.

Seems to me that Joseph was constantly reinventing his religion in response to some crisis or another. The problem is that he kept shooting himself in the foot, leaving a trail of obvious mistakes.

Post by **_MormonMendacity** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:06 am

Dr. Shades wrote:I hear you, MormonMendacity, but even if the Book of Mormon was pulled off seamlessly like you describe there would still be the Kinderhook Plates, the Book of Abraham, polyandry, etc.

I know...but those things all seemed like collateral damage to me as I was emerging from the fog of absolute faith.

If he had never played the "I'm a translater, watch me translate" role, there wouldn't have been Kinderhook and Book of Abraham. He could have just said he got cool visions.

The props -- a con-man's tools -- were so unnecessary. He could have just got all the information he wanted from various dead angels or directly from god in visions.

runtu wrote:Seems to me that Joseph was constantly reinventing his religion in response to some crisis or another. The problem is that he kept shooting himself in the foot, leaving a trail of obvious mistakes.

You're right, too. I just think the "I talk to God"-thing works so well and is so hard to refute.

I swear that the majority of the apologists spend their time trying to defend the Keystone of their Relgion.

I'd have probably never figured it out otherwise.

Post by **_Runtu** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:09 am

MormonMendacity wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:I hear you, MormonMendacity, but even if the Book of Mormon was pulled off seamlessly like you describe there would still be the Kinderhook Plates, the Book of Abraham, polyandry, etc.

I know...but those things all seemed like collateral damage to me as I was emerging from the fog of absolute faith.

If he had never pretened the "I'm a translater, watch me translate" there wouldn't have been Kinderhook and Book of Abraham. He could have just said he got cool visions.

The props -- a con-man's tools -- were so unnecessary. He could have just got all the information he wanted from various dead angels or directly from god in visions.

runtu wrote:Seems to me that Joseph was constantly reinventing his religion in response to some crisis or another. The problem is that he kept shooting himself in the foot, leaving a trail of obvious mistakes.

You're right, too. I just think the "I talk to God"-thing works so well and is so hard to refute.

I swear that the majority of the apologists spend their time trying to defend the Keystone of their Relgion.

I'd have probably never figured it out otherwise.

I hesitate to say this, lest someone say I'm being disrespectful, but in hindsight it all sounds so ridiculous, but for 40 years of my life it was as real to me as the sun.

Post by **_Polygamy Porter** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:36 am

Gazelam wrote:You forget that eventually Joseph no longer needed the stone, He began translating on his own. The stone was to train him to understand the language. Also I heard your comment on another thread regarding why the 116 pages were not retranslated (or maybe that was Porter), this was because God instructed him not to after witholding the plates from him for a time while Joseph repented of his wrongs.

Gaz

It still amazes me as much as it did when I was a youth, that people do not question that whole excuse for not re translating the plates.

And of course! Elohim decides the first 116 pages was just fluff and did not need that anyway...

Why do you think Joe ran the papyrus up the flag pole for all to SEE and feel? Because many people, both in and outside the church did not fully believe the whole golden plate BS story..

Look at me! I have ancient records from ummm.. Abraham and I can translate them! Seee I toldja I was a prophet seeer and revelator!!! Do you have a daughter?

Post by **_MormonMendacity** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:11 am

Runtu wrote:I hesitate to say this, lest someone say I'm being disrespectful, but in hindsight it all sounds so ridiculous, but for 40 years of my life it was as real to me as the sun.

Me, too. I stood as firmly as I could on so many occasions when I could have opened my eyes to some pretty scarey stuff.

Was there a single, seminal incident that movied you from believer to questioner? Moroni 10:4&5 did it for me...then all the stuff started to collapse.

Post by **_Polygamy Porter** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:57 am

MormonMendacity wrote:
Runtu wrote:I hesitate to say this, lest someone say I'm being disrespectful, but in hindsight it all sounds so ridiculous, but for 40 years of my life it was as real to me as the sun.

Me, too. I stood as firmly as I could on so many occasions when I could have opened my eyes to some pretty scarey stuff.

Was there a single, seminal incident that movied you from believer to questioner? Moroni 10:4&5 did it for me...then all the stuff started to collapse.

I was always questioning it all. I'd get into arguments with my mom about statements from her like, "The second coming will happen when everyone has had the opportunity to either accept or reject the gospel(a.k.a. Mormonism)"

I did not waste time on a mission. I served my country. In return, the tax paying citizens of the USofA paid for my college education. I reactivated while in the military due to pressure from my family and being young and away from comfortable surroundings, I responed to the pressures and went through the Master Mormon Masonic Theater of Horrors in 1987 to do my own blood oaths and get a set of chapel chaps.

I did marry in the temple (after 1990) and saw the omissions. That was a big dent in my duty to church via family. I simply avoided the temple unless I was required by family for marriage or mission. I did not enjoy the temple and hated the garmies.

Years later, my inactive BIL said something about the impossibility of horses and the Book of Mormon.

I Googled.

Blown away by what I found on that first Google seach, I found Fair, and Farms, and wanted to invalidate or validate the things I had found. Shortly there after, my first epiphany was due to the Book of Abraham.

In a nutshell, I had a question about horses, so I went over to the Farm(s), they gave my a gunny sack made of Papyrus and told me to go over to the Fair(board).

At the Fair(board) I climbed the steps of knowledge. Once I reached the top, I rode that som'bit'chin papyrus like nobody's bid'ness right down the slippery slide of apostacy! WEEEEE!!!

Post by **_Guardiands** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:23 am

MormonMendacity, I must admit I find the "props" undisturbing. Why use a seer stone? Well, Joseph was raised to believe that God spoke to people through such tools. Why use Golden Plates? Because the presence of them (even if it was just random scribblings with no meaning) provided Joseph with some physical evidence.

So why should these things matter? I mean, later Joseph received revelations and translated without these "props". So it would seem he had the ability to translate/receive revelation on his own all along.

So my answer to this is that revelation has always been explained as something that takes a great amount of faith. If I may be so cheesy, Dumbo could always fly, the feather didn't suddenly endow him with this power, but the feather gave him the faith that was needed for him to fly. These "props" would give Joseph the faith needed to receive the revelations.

At least that's one way of looking at it.