In retrospect, the thing that bothered me most

[_MormonMendacity]

Would you lie so you could attend a wedding?

In a heartbeat. I'd lie six ways to Sunday, if I had to, and I'd feel no guilt for doing so. God does not put barriers between family members; only men do that, power-hungry, hard-hearted, hoist with their own petard, foolish arrogant men.

I allow nothing to get in the way of me being where I want to be for an important family event, and that certainly includes strangers in Salt Lake City.

Fortunately for me, my bishop does not require me to lie. "I don't know", and "I'm still working that out" is sufficient for him. His idea is that it's more important for me to be in the temple than for him to stand in a judgment he is not qualified to make. He is a gentle soul and a fine bishop.

I don't think I should have to. I think the conflict of morals is unnecessary. I complied with the rules to see my eldest daughter marry -- even though I was very skeptical about the necessity of the questions. My bishop was good and gave it to me anyway. The second one I simply refused to do. By then my questions had evolved into utter disbelief that I had been deceived for so many years.

The Church holds too much power in this. I believe they will change the rules. Changes will be made one funeral at a time.

[_MormonMendacity]

There is a saying, I think its jewish, that when there is a stirring on Earth there is a stirring in heaven. If you want God to interact with you, you have to interact with him.

You need to strip things down to the basics, give yourself the old six discussions. Just give it a week of doing it the way your supposed to. Pray when and how you should, read an hour each night.

Just try it for a week, see if he answers you. Remember after you offer your prayer to stay on your knees for an extra minute, give God a quiet chance to answer you.

Gaz

It's stuff like this that just makes me wonder about people. Do you seriously not think I haven't done this?

Our experience is casually dismissed with a "JUST TRY HARDER" because they know it -- and so should we. No other possibility can exist in the apologist's mind -- like we tried -- maybe harder than they have -- and came to other conclusions.

[_harmony]

I don't think I should have to. I think the conflict of morals is unnecessary. I complied with the rules to see my eldest daughter marry -- even though I was very skeptical about the necessity of the questions. My bishop was good and gave it to me anyway. The second one I simply refused to do. By then my questions had evolved into utter disbelief that I had been deceived for so many years.

The Church holds too much power in this. I believe they will change the rules. Changes will be made one funeral at a time.

Before my daughter was temple married, I sat her down and had a detailed talk with on what to expect, from start to finish. No way was I letting her go through blind like I did (as a convert, I had no one to tell me anyway, so it's not like my mother let me down; she didn't know either.) She understood that it's all allegory, ceremonial if you will, not to be taken literally, including all the oaths, signs, and covenants. I prepared her and she had a very nice experience, because she understood it. Those that take the endowment literally are those destined to think the Garden of Eden was literal too. That is not me.

No way was I letting some stranger in SLC tell me I couldn't be with her for this important event in her life. I don't allow men that much control over me. I have no problem with authority properly exercised. I obey my supervisor at work, obey the police and the laws of the land, follow any number of rules in life and at church... but I will not obey something I feel is designed to harm me and mine. The Church lies; they have no leg to stand on, should the high ground become necessary.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Runtu, you said:

Honestly, I don't really know. I was talking with my mission companion/BYU roommate on the phone this morning, and we seem to be in the same place these days: we would really like to believe in God, but we lean towards his nonexistence. 21 years ago, we were young, believing Mormons out to convert South America. And now look at us. But we both are happy and optimistic. Life is pretty good, you know? (bold added:-)

So you must be 40ish? Yeah, that's a "pretty good" time!! Just about the beginning of smarts, next comes wisdom... :-)Looking back at 19, 20, 21, 22... a 40ish can't help but laugh, or cry, about their 'smarts' way back then... A really great time to be "teaching the world pro-found truth" when they haven't "really" found it themselves, LOL!

Are stats available re the rate of church activity/inactivity of RMs? Would make an interesting 'paper'...

"Belief in God", another very deserving study. "...happy and optimisic" Congrats! Doesn't get much better than that!! Warm regards, Roger

[_Runtu]

Hi Runtu, you said:

Honestly, I don't really know. I was talking with my mission companion/BYU roommate on the phone this morning, and we seem to be in the same place these days: we would really like to believe in God, but we lean towards his nonexistence. 21 years ago, we were young, believing Mormons out to convert South America. And now look at us. But we both are happy and optimistic. Life is pretty good, you know? (bold added:-)

So you must be 40ish? Yeah, that's a "pretty good" time!! Just about the beginning of smarts, next comes wisdom... :-)Looking back at 19, 20, 21, 22... a 40ish can't help but laugh, or cry, about their 'smarts' way back then... A really great time to be "teaching the world pro-found truth" when they haven't "really" found it themselves, LOL!

Are stats available re the rate of church activity/inactivity of RMs? Would make an interesting 'paper'...

"Belief in God", another very deserving study. "...happy and optimisic" Congrats! Doesn't get much better than that!! Warm regards, Roger

Yeah, I just turned 42. It is a good time of life. I'm in good health (and wine country girl told me I'm "so young and cute"), and yet I'm feeling like I am at the beginning of smarts. Frankly, I don't know that the retention rate for RMs is all that much better than it is for the general membership. I remember on my mission meeting a lot of Bolivian RMs who promptly quit going to church when they got home. It just took me a little longer. LOL

Warm regards from me, too.

John

[_Gazelam]

I found your last post really disturbing.

You instructed your daughter that everything in the temple is just an allegory? Nothing is to be taken literally?

So she and her husband are only figuratively sealed. All of the promises of salvation and Eternal life are only symbolic and are not to be taken literally. We receive the blessings of Abraham only in a figurative sence.

Where does the figurative end and the literal begin with you?

Are we only in a figurative fallen world? Did Jesus Christ only figuratively die for our sins?

You really taught your daughter that the Garden of Eden was only a story made up to figuratively instruct us in some concept of living? What is wrong with you?

D&C 88
26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;
27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.
28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.
37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.
40 But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.

If you are teaching your daughter that God is only a figurative idea, you are guilty of staling light.

I advise you to take notice of where you are standing and reconsider your position.

Gaz

[_MormonMendacity]

Before my daughter was temple married, I sat her down and had a detailed talk with on what to expect, from start to finish. No way was I letting her go through blind like I did (as a convert, I had no one to tell me anyway, so it's not like my mother let me down; she didn't know either.) She understood that it's all allegory, ceremonial if you will, not to be taken literally, including all the oaths, signs, and covenants. I prepared her and she had a very nice experience, because she understood it. Those that take the endowment literally are those destined to think the Garden of Eden was literal too. That is not me.

No way was I letting some stranger in SLC tell me I couldn't be with her for this important event in her life. I don't allow men that much control over me. I have no problem with authority properly exercised. I obey my supervisor at work, obey the police and the laws of the land, follow any number of rules in life and at church... but I will not obey something I feel is designed to harm me and mine. The Church lies; they have no leg to stand on, should the high ground become necessary.

Thanks, Harmony. That is a good tack.

I found out after the fact that another daughter (I have five) took out her endowments. I was very sad. She didn't want me to know before hand. She still lives with her mother and knew I had left the Church. This kid is so pretty and so feminine. It was after the washings and annointings had been changed but I still wish I could have talked with her first.

I just remember how shocked I was when I went through the first time. It was like no form of Mormonism I had ever known before going through the temple. It was completely opposed to how I thought the LDS church was supposed to operate.

Thanks for your comments.

[_Runtu]

[
Thanks, Harmony. That is a good tack.

I found out after the fact that another daughter (I have five) took out her endowments. I was very sad. She didn't want me to know before hand. She still lives with her mother and knew I had left the Church. This kid is so pretty and so feminine. It was after the washings and annointings had been changed but I still wish I could have talked with her first.

I just remember how shocked I was when I went through the first time. It was like no form of Mormonism I had ever known before going through the temple. It was completely opposed to how I thought the LDS church was supposed to operate.

Thanks for your comments.

This will all be an issue for me in the future, which is a little depressing. I guess I could take Gaz's advice and repent (of what, I'm not sure).

[_MormonMendacity]

I guess I could take Gaz's advice and repent (of what, I'm not sure).

Perhaps this lack of understanding on your (read: my) part is sifting through the claims and evidence.

I can't speak for anyone else who left the Church, but I sincerely tried to get it. I sincerely did all the things that I was instructed to do -- and I ignored the problems. The props that eventually, upon closer scrutiny, failed.

I was born and raised LDS. I held every priesthood calling, held most of the priesthood positions in a ward, served a full-time mision, read the Book of Mormon countless times, attended four years of Seminary, attended BYU -- and yet none of that prepared me for handling the troubling questions of inspiration and eventually the history.

I would have preferred that it was true. How can you repent from finding out the truth?

[_Roger Morrison]

[
Thanks, Harmony. That is a good tack.

I found out after the fact that another daughter (I have five) took out her endowments. I was very sad. She didn't want me to know before hand. She still lives with her mother and knew I had left the Church. This kid is so pretty and so feminine. It was after the washings and annointings had been changed but I still wish I could have talked with her first.

I just remember how shocked I was when I went through the first time. It was like no form of Mormonism I had ever known before going through the temple. It was completely opposed to how I thought the LDS church was supposed to operate.

Thanks for your comments.

This will all be an issue for me in the future, which is a little depressing. I guess I could take Gaz's advice and repent (of what, I'm not sure).

Hi Runtu, maybe with some "faith an' works" you will experience a more enlightened time. I seriously encourage writing each member of the First Presidency stating heart felt appeal to rescind this policy of excluding non-member, or inactive-LDS family from the marriage ceremony of their children.

I do not think of this as a "protest letter". It is meant to encourage compassion where/when compassion/charity should guide actions that affect the lives of others. Surely this does not fall beyond what one expects of Spiritual Leaders.

In Moses story the cries of the people caused "God" to act. There are lesson in the Book :-) If not now... If not me... How many cries will it take... "Ask...knock...seek and find" Why not? Warm regards, Roger