In retrospect, the thing that bothered me most

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Roger Morrison wrote:
I think the 'bold' request could quite legitimately be asked of the Old Testament. And, of the New Testament as it's based on the Old. Does doing so nullify any 'good' that might come by applying any "sound doctrine" (read, sensible ideas) in either the O or the N?

It seems to me, many are quick to spot Joseph Smith's active imagination, and excitedly/calmly reject the Book of Mormon as something less than it is claimed to be.

At the same time however, they accept with little question the "Christian-Doctrine-Theology", whether LDS or nonLDS, of the "Fall", "Redemption", "After-life" and "Heaven"!

Please folks, "...I ask for something more than unsubstantiated claims" of the whole-holiness Judeo-Christian movement. Warm regards, Roger


Don't you find that most (the majority) of exmormons who post on the net, do not turn to Christianity as a replacement? My impression from reading RFM is that when a Mormon puts it all together and comes to a realization that the claims by the Mormon church are absurd, they then apply that same critical thinking to the Bible and Christianity in general.

It seems to me that even though a group may refer to itself as Christian, the vast number of various Christian groups vary greatly in the degree of irrationality taught and in expectations from members. Mormonism for example is extreme in its expectations of members and in its aggressiveness in seeking out new membership. Because it is so involved in member's lives it becomes much more difficult to leave (barriers to exit are high) than other more liberal type Christian groups. But when Mormons leave they aren't anxious to jump into something else.

One of the reasons I enjoyed reading RFM over the last 5 years (off and on) was due to the active critical thinking typically employed by its posters.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Explain to me then how it is that the teachings of the Book of Mormon, and the other "modern" scriptures not only expound upon but claify doctrine?

The creation

The Fall

and The Atonement.

All of these are made clearer and our perception is opened by combineing Old scriptures with the scriptures given to us by Joseph. If he were not a prophet, these thigns would not hold up.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Gazelam wrote:Explain to me then how it is that the teachings of the Book of Mormon, and the other "modern" scriptures not only expound upon but claify doctrine?

The creation

The Fall

and The Atonement.

All of these are made clearer and our perception is opened by combineing Old scriptures with the scriptures given to us by Joseph. If he were not a prophet, these thigns would not hold up.

Gaz


You're of course presupposing that Joseph's "clarification" is correct. What if it's not?
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Show it from the scriptures

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Gazelam wrote:Show it from the scriptures

Gaz


I surrender in the face of circular logic.
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi MM, you say:
In the old carnival "shell game" the three shells and the pea are only used to distract your attention. When you're actually being cheated, the pea is not under ANY of the shells and the carni is just talking away a storm about how you're supposed to "keep your eye on the shell with the pea. Keep watching that shell. You know which one."

You tell a story about Moses on the mountain for a month. Nothing too interesting. But then...Moses "reminds" everyone how there was constant lightning on the mountain...that was the finger of God chiseling out the 10 Commandments. Now everyone remembers the lightning and they can see the plates with the carvings. No one asks, "Are you sure you aren't the one who chiseled the plates? Are you chiseling us now?"

There is little difference between any of these scams. They all smell.


The "shell game"... i didn't know that!! Where did da pee go, Bro?? AND, did Moses state/imply it was " da lightning dat did it?" Never too old to learn, eh! Or are you just "chiseling" this old-guy??

It is interesting how one does recognize similar odors as exposure sensitizes the sniffer. Also, like looking for 4-leaf clovers, or mushrooms, once you spot one it's much easier to spot the next. Before ya know it yer an expert and can take on all challengers :-)

IF one wants to... as it's said, "when the student is ready, the teacher will come." Warm regards, Roger
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Marg, you said:
Don't you find that most (the majority) of exmormons who post on the net, do not turn to Christianity as a replacement? My impression from reading RFM is that when a Mormon puts it all together and comes to a realization that the claims by the Mormon church are absurd, they then apply that same critical thinking to the Bible and Christianity in general.

It seems to me that even though a group may refer to itself as Christian, the vast number of various Christian groups vary greatly in the degree of irrationality taught and in expectations from members. Mormonism for example is extreme in its expectations of members and in its aggressiveness in seeking out new membership. Because it is so involved in member's lives it becomes much more difficult to leave (barriers to exit are high) than other more liberal type Christian groups. But when Mormons leave they aren't anxious to jump into something else.

One of the reasons I enjoyed reading RFM over the last 5 years (off and on) was due to the active critical thinking typically employed by its posters.



You are probably correct about, "...applying the same critical thinking..." It is difficult for me to believe that people really do take literally the "Fall, Redemption by blood, Resurrection, and Heaven" as "found in scripture."

About a LDS leaving THE church...i think that has a lot to do with the dispositions of the individuals, and really how strong the respect is for one another within the family.

In our case--my wife and i seemed to move at the same pace--there was no attempt to convince us to stay, even our RM son'n-law didn't say a thing. Possibly because he too was beginning to sense inconsistencies... With us it was a slow evolving process...no trauma. Just like getting up from the table, feeling satisfied full, and just not wanting any more...

What was interseting, there was not a single approach from any Ward or Stake Officer, or member who asked "why?" Or even seemed to care. Maybe they were glad to have a free-thinker out of their midst? This i do think illustrates both admin and empathetic weakness; at least in that particular Stake at that time??? I don't know what others have experienced...

I think IF people are happy where they are on the religious scale then that is where they should be. As that "happiness" wanes then there's no reason to remain. Specially if that decison is made thoughtfully, rationally and prayerfully. And not because so-and-so said/did such-and-such. IF that is the case they possibly weren't there for the 'right-reason', so to speak, from the beginning...

What is your connection to LDSism? Warm regards, Roger
_marg

Post by _marg »

Roger Morrison wrote:
What is your connection to LDSism? Warm regards, Roger


I have no connection other than the Net. I first looked into Mormonism about 5 or 6 years ago. I believe RFM was the first site I came across. That site led me to www.2think.org where I participated. Many discussions dealt with Mormonism.

I grew up with no religious indoctrination, and had no appreciation previous to my exposure on the Net, of the degree to which educated intelligent 'religious' individuals believed in magic as if it were true/real. I initially thought people must be joking but quickly learned that wasn't the case.

by the way, I like your attitude and the wisdom you display in your discussions.
_MormonMendacity
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Post by _MormonMendacity »

Roger Morrison wrote:Hi MM, you say:
In the old carnival "shell game" the three shells and the pea are only used to distract your attention. When you're actually being cheated, the pea is not under ANY of the shells and the carni is just talking away a storm about how you're supposed to "keep your eye on the shell with the pea. Keep watching that shell. You know which one."

You tell a story about Moses on the mountain for a month. Nothing too interesting. But then...Moses "reminds" everyone how there was constant lightning on the mountain...that was the finger of God chiseling out the 10 Commandments. Now everyone remembers the lightning and they can see the plates with the carvings. No one asks, "Are you sure you aren't the one who chiseled the plates? Are you chiseling us now?"

There is little difference between any of these scams. They all smell.


The "shell game"... i didn't know that!! Where did da pee go, Bro?? AND, did Moses state/imply it was " da lightning dat did it?" Never too old to learn, eh! Or are you just "chiseling" this old-guy??

After a few times letting the mark get it right he palms the pea and just moves the shells for effect. They're very good at it and they "double-er-nuthin" the mark until he's broke or his partner yells, "Cops!"

But I never got caught. I mean -- "they" never get caught.

Re: Moses: When people started examining the tablets he accused them of idol worship and smashed them. Put the Children of Israel back on their heels! Next time, he got himself a Mason and they made a mould and poured the plates in cement. (Most of my knowledge about these amazing ancient occurrences comes from my personal seer-stone. Ya gots one, right?)
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
_MormonMendacity
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Post by _MormonMendacity »

Gazelam wrote:Show it from the scriptures

I would...but I doubt you could see it from your strictures.
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
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