In retrospect, the thing that bothered me most

[_Gazelam]

What is this horrible truth? Whats the problem exactly?

Gaz

[_Gazelam]

Entering the Temple is like entering Gods House. You might notice the big sign engraved into the side of the building that reads "The House of the Lord".

Just how open should that be?

What do the scripturess day? Please list refrences for us in your responce.

Gaz

[_MormonMendacity]

What is this horrible truth? Whats the problem exactly?

Gaz

My discovery that Joseph lied. That he really didn't translate anything. That he couldn't translate. That he made up many aspects of Mormonism. That the Book of Mormon is not a history of the ancient inhabitants of America. That there is no evidence for anything in the Book of Mormon. That he wedded dozens of women. That he lied about wedding them. That he violated the Constitution of the United States that he, as a government official, swore to defend when he destroyed the Expositor. That he founded anti-Banks to contravene state laws, that he tried to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon, that members of the Church brutally murdered 120 men, women and children after having them surrender under a flag of truce and safe passage.

Thanks for interviewing me!!!!

[_Runtu]

What is this horrible truth? Whats the problem exactly?

Gaz

My discovery that Joseph lied. That he really didn't translate anything. That he couldn't translate. That he made up many aspects of Mormonism. That the Book of Mormon is not a history of the ancient inhabitants of America. That there is no evidence for anything in the Book of Mormon. That he wedded dozens of women. That he lied about wedding them. That he violated the Constitution of the United States that he, as a government official, swore to defend when he destroyed the Expositor. That he founded anti-Banks to contravene state laws, that he tried to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon, that members of the Church brutally murdered 120 men, women and children after having them surrender under a flag of truce and safe passage.

Thanks for interviewing me!!!!

Don't forget my personal favorites: telling families that they will have a place in the celestial kingdom only if they consent to letting him bed their teenaged daughters without Emma's consent or knowledge. Taking the inheritance of his foster daughters and sleeping with them behind Emma's back. And last, sending his friends on missions and then sleeping with their wives while they were gone, not surprisingly behind Emma's back as well.

But yeah, the main thing is that he was no translator; he was an obvious fraud.

[_Roger Morrison]

Entering the Temple is like entering Gods House. You might notice the big sign engraved into the side of the building that reads "The House of the Lord".Just how open should that be?

What do the scripturess day? Please list refrences for us in your responce. (bold added by RM)

Gaz

Good AM Gaz, you say: "...big sign..." Do you think such a sign is necessary for a person to know what is of "God"? "House of the Lord" really? "God" confined behind doors? Of course i understand the inferences of such stuff. I just do not see it relevant to much but orthodox cultism. Which is fine for those enamoured by it. Enjoy it to YOUR fullest.

"...how open should that (house) be?" When You open your eyes in the morning, are there edicted restrictions on what You can see? Must You perform rituals--i mean REALLY effective rituals, not prayers of gratitude (might surprise you at who expresses those:-)--have some unique 'authority' bestowed upon you to be blessed by the goodness of creation?

Certainly "Entering the Temple" can be a moving, inspiring, awesome experience. The archritecture is designed to do that to people. Donald Trump does real good in that too--to some folks :-) Most cathedrals worthy of the name have qualities that do the same.

Iconoclasm, ritualism and liturgies in many forms and expressions are common elements of institutionalized religion. A lot of folks like that. So be it. It is there for them to draw closer to their understanding of "God". Others don't have the same impression of "God". Consequently they have no reason to be committed to those traditions, other than possibly attending IF, when and why they 'choose' to do so... Check out my topic, "What of "God" for another widely held view.

The Jews thought they could have, "God-in-a-box" (Ark), or saw Him as a 'dragon' that would guarantee their success in battle etc. (Couple of refs here, Jersey Girl 5:4-5, Ex 15:3-11. That also illustrate the Old Testament "God" differing from the New Testament "God". Not the issue here, so please don't get side tracked:-) How different than having "God" in a Temple?

As "I" understand "God", & Jesus who attempted to reform the "Church" of HIS time, i find little, if anything that suggests "exclusivity" or favour, or ritualism. "You" are welcome to understand it differently...

I respectfully suggest that your seeming dependency on "scriptural references", to validate opinion does little but evidence your dependency upon the past to an inordinate degree. Carry over from yer M-days, playing "Scripture Chase"? :-)

Enjoy your blessings in "God's" Universe, it's open to everyone... Warm regards, Roger

[_Gazelam]

The Temple of God is here to help us to 1. learn how to approach our God in this life and in the world to come, and 2. That God might have a place to manifest himself to his people. (D&C 109:5)

To follow God is a process of sanctification. The Temple is a part of that. The Temple is not "God in a Box", neither was the Ark of the Covenant for that matter. It is a sacred place consecrated and set apart that we can go and be clean before our God and enjoy the company of God the Holy Ghost to be blessed and inspired. Adam had Eden, Enoch had Mount Haran and Moriah, Moses had Sinai, Christ, Peter, James and John had the Mount of Transfiguration. These places were consecrated by the Lord for sacred and Holy purposes. For our time we have the Temples.

D&C 124:37-41

37 And again, verily I say unto you, how shall your washings be acceptable unto me, except ye perform them in a house which you have built to my name?
38 For, for this cause I commanded Moses that he should build a tabernacle, that they should bear it with them in the wilderness, and to build a house in the land of promise, that those ordinances might be revealed which had been hid from before the world was.
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this ahouse be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;
41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.




Temples and their ordinances are eternal, and the work therin effects our life here and in the eternities.

Gaz

[_Gazelam]

Joseph Smith was a translator, evidence to that fact is overwhelming. Here is one website dealing with just that: http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml I suggest that if you want to weed out your bitter root you spend more time studying the evidence than the criticism. To question is good, but look for answers instead of more questions.

Made up Mormonism? Joseph was the Prophet of the Restoration. Did Christ "make up" Christianity when he sought to restore the Jews from the Law of Moses?

I have shown you evidence for the Book of Mormon on other threads. Most notably the Temple in Cusco.

That Joseph practised polygamy is not questioned. The Details of it all I don't know. I have read some accounts and testimonys, but honestly I don't know much about it all. I do know he was the Lords annointed, and if there was any wrongdoing on his part, he will be judged accordingly. This is Christs church, not Josephs.

When Joseph destroyed the Expositor, he was withen every Legal right, and this has been shown.

The events surrounding the Kirtland safety society were not Josephs fault. He warned against the notes that were printed and was disobeyed. There was a Judas in the bank. The records regarding the bank were discovered years later and shown to be accurate and well kept.

From what I understand, Joseph was wrong to try to sell the Copyright, and was told such. Josephs desires fro richs were what kept him from receiveing the plates from Moroni for such a long time in the first place.

What went on outside of Cedar city Utah in the Mountain Meadows Massacre is a terrible thing. I have visited the valley, been to the grave, and was taught in detail what went on there. There was no good side in any way, neither with the Mormons, nor the Indians, nor the company traveling through. I wont seek to justify that mess in any way.

These things in no way mean the Church is not true. This is Christs Church. Period. The actions of a few do not change this. Teh Holy Ghost testifies of this church again and again. don't pick and pick and pick at all these small things.

Return to the scriptures and listen to the words of the living prophets. Return to regular prayer and seek after the company of the Holy Ghost. You'll get your peace of mind and heart if you do this.

Gaz

[_Roger Morrison]

Good Sabbath Gaz, thank you for your diligence. If sincerity could convince me of the 100% truthfullness of Mormonism, yours would do it. I do hope Mormonism continues to nourish you, and your family in every way on your, and their, personal journey(s) through life.

There are certainly aspects of LDSism that bear good fruit, as i'm sure most here have tasted. As have those who have never heard of Joseph Smith, Mormonism, or for that matter of Jesus Christ. That 'fruit' is universal, and is by grace free to those who apply the principles upon which they are predicated--"...before the foundation of this world..."

The 'seeds' are where you find them. How you cultivate and nourish them through, prayer, study and learning--from the best books, of the best minds--will, generally speaking, depending on diligence and due process, prosper one in the important things of this life.

IF there is a relevancy to another life, there will be no denial of any contingency at THAT time. I respectfully suggest, "doing right things for right reasons" tends to peace of mind, and inclines one to continue in the satisfaction of good-works... With no loss of reward.

The Temple of God is here to help us to 1. learn how to approach our God in this life and in the world to come, and 2. That God might have a place to manifest himself to his people. (D&C 109:5)

To follow God is a process of sanctification. The Temple is a part of that. The Temple is not "God in a Box", neither was the Ark of the Covenant for that matter. It is a sacred place consecrated and set apart that we can go and be clean before our God and enjoy the company of God the Holy Ghost to be blessed and inspired. Adam had Eden, Enoch had Mount Haran and Moriah, Moses had Sinai, Christ, Peter, James and John had the Mount of Transfiguration. These places were consecrated by the Lord for sacred and Holy purposes. For our time we have the Temples.

D&C 124:37-41

37 And again, verily I say unto you, how shall your washings be acceptable unto me, except ye perform them in a house which you have built to my name?
38 For, for this cause I commanded Moses that he should build a tabernacle, that they should bear it with them in the wilderness, and to build a house in the land of promise, that those ordinances might be revealed which had been hid from before the world was.
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this ahouse be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;
41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.




Temples and their ordinances are eternal, and the work therin effects our life here and in the eternities.

Gaz

The Universe is eternal! There is nothing hid that won't in its own time, by the working of intelligence--(the glory of "God"?)--be made manifest. Our lives are but an instant it time, and miniscule in space. However, our actions while here can bear disproportionately, negatively or positively on the future.

How we effect the lives of others will be recorded in their behaviour, sense of self, and contributions to life. History will be our judge... Warm regards, Roger

[_Runtu]

Joseph Smith was a translator, evidence to that fact is overwhelming. Here is one website dealing with just that: http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml I suggest that if you want to weed out your bitter root you spend more time studying the evidence than the criticism. To question is good, but look for answers instead of more questions.

Oh, Gaz, seriously? Jeff Lindsay? The Inspector Clouseau of apologetics? OK, you just dropped way down in my estimation. Sorry, but at least find somebody who is a respectable apologist.

Made up Mormonism? Joseph was the Prophet of the Restoration. Did Christ "make up" Christianity when he sought to restore the Jews from the Law of Moses?

I don't believe Joseph Smith made up Mormonism; rather, he borrowed from a lot of sources to create his religion.

I have shown you evidence for the Book of Mormon on other threads. Most notably the Temple in Cusco.

Um, sorry to break it to you, but the temple in Cuzco is not good evidence for the Book of Mormon, unless you believe that the Nephites got to the Americas a lot earlier than they did. I have a degree in Latin American Studies, and I've never heard anyone suggest that Cuzco has anything to do with the Book of Mormon. In fact, the guys at FARMS would have to reject that idea, as it conflicts with the LGT.

That Joseph practised polygamy is not questioned. The Details of it all I don't know. I have read some accounts and testimonys, but honestly I don't know much about it all. I do know he was the Lords annointed, and if there was any wrongdoing on his part, he will be judged accordingly. This is Christs church, not Josephs.

When Joseph destroyed the Expositor, he was withen every Legal right, and this has been shown.

He destroyed the Expositor because William Law was going to expose polygamy. The dubious legality of it is irrelevant. You admittedly don't know much about Joseph's practice of polygamy, so you can be excused. I'm sorry, but Joseph's behavior was reprehensible. You freak when someone shows a penis, but you couldn't care less that a "prophet" coerced teenagers and married women into getting into bed with him. What kind of morality is that?

The events surrounding the Kirtland safety society were not Josephs fault. He warned against the notes that were printed and was disobeyed. There was a Judas in the bank. The records regarding the bank were discovered years later and shown to be accurate and well kept.

Looks like you're as well versed in this episode as you are about polyandry.

From what I understand, Joseph was wrong to try to sell the Copyright, and was told such. Josephs desires fro richs were what kept him from receiveing the plates from Moroni for such a long time in the first place.

Joseph said he had a revelation to sell the copyright. When things didn't work out, he said it wasn't a revelation. It's not really difficult, Gaz.

What went on outside of Cedar city Utah in the Mountain Meadows Massacre is a terrible thing. I have visited the valley, been to the grave, and was taught in detail what went on there. There was no good side in any way, neither with the Mormons, nor the Indians, nor the company traveling through. I wont seek to justify that mess in any way.

Can you tell me what the company traveling through did that was wrong? What did those children do to merit being slaughtered?

These things in no way mean the Church is not true. This is Christs Church. Period. The actions of a few do not change this. Teh Holy Ghost testifies of this church again and again. don't pick and pick and pick at all these small things.

The acts of the founding "prophet" in creating bogus scriptures and using his position for wealth, power, and sex mean precisely that the church is not what it claims to be.

Return to the scriptures and listen to the words of the living prophets. Return to regular prayer and seek after the company of the Holy Ghost. You'll get your peace of mind and heart if you do this.

Gaz

That PR guy in Salt Lake is no prophet. I pray every day, Gaz. It doesn't surprise me that I've been led away from the demonstrably false.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Joseph Smith was a translator, evidence to that fact is overwhelming.

Really?

Show me the evidence then.

Lets see.. cannot do it with the Book of Mormon, cuz Moroni the librarian took it back before any real scholars could validate anything..

HOWEVER, we have the Papyrus.. none of which prove anything except he was a complete fraud.