Is lack of specificity in prophecy a cause for concern?

[_Gazelam]

Is the lottery esential to your eternal salvation?

[_Mephitus]

Is the lottery esential to your eternal salvation?

Is polygamy?

[_Draig Goch]

"Is lack of specificity in prophecy a cause for concern?"

I thought about this for a while once.

If revelation was meant for US in THIS time, why were there no references to things familiar to us?

Cell phones, television, internet, cameras, cars...

Nothing but wars and destruction. Hardly a prophecy.

I would expect something like this;

"I saw in vision strange things. Men conversing with men on the other side of the world. Small boxes containing images of people moving and speaking. Horseless chariots with four wheels."

Other things like space travel, satellites, advances in medicine.

NOTHING!!!

Some prophets, eh?

[_Pokatator]

D&C 130:14-15 wrote:
I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

What is vague about 85 years?
All I get out of this is that Joseph hears voices.

I always took this prophecy as Gods way of teling Joseph to Shut up and quit asking. It seems Joseph had a history of asking for things he shouldent. This led to both the 116 pages being lost and also the restoration of Polygamy. I can't remember where I read it, but I heard God tried to give Joseph an out before revealing Polygamy, and Joseph being hungry for knowledge insisted God teach it to him.

This is not so much a criticism of the Prophet, as it is just a funny observation.

Gaz

Let me get this straight.....Joseph has a habit of asking for things he should not....

This is not a good thing, right?

Joseph looses the 116 pages.....not a good thing right...

As further punishment God restores Polgamy.....

God failed to give him an out, so God punished him with Polygamy??????

"Dear God, I'm hungry for se...knowledge...x so teach me about polygamy, please!!! Sincerely, Joseph.........and God granted Joseph's request.

Is/was polygamy a good thing or a bad thing?

Do you proof read what you write?

I'm with Vegas on this, "How can you restore something that Christainity condemns?

I missed the humor in the "funny observation" ....enlighten me.

Gaz, I know you will tell me that Joseph didn't live to be 85 so the prophecy didn't count, I know voices are kind of funny that way aren't they. Or is that the Son of Man's sense of humor showing?

Gaz

Just pick one question at a time if I overwhelmed you.

Pokatator

[_Gazelam]

Sorry, I didn't know that was a serious question.

Could you rephrase your question for me as to a specific subject?

[_Quantumwave]

Lack of specificity in prophecy is a BIG problem, given that the fundamental premise is that prophecy comes from God, believed to be an omniscient being by religionists.

It is a valid conclusion that if an omniscient being gave information to anyone, the information would be explicitly detailed and without flaw. The details would include who, what, when and where with complete accuracy. The information that prophets provide is never explicit as to who, what, when and where, therefore, it cannot be concluded that “God-did-it” since the outcomes of the predictions by the prophets never contain the specificity that would support the premise that the source was an omniscient being.

Some people have special insight including the ability to predict some events. Two of the more famous that come to mind are Nostradamus and Jeanne Dixon. Jeanne Dixon made some predictions that happened, and some that did not. Probably her most famous prediction was the assassination of John Kennedy. Does that mean there is a “God” that gave her that information? Not likely. Her prediction did not specifically state it would be John Kennedy who would be assassinated.

The ability to predict can be attributed to the same source that psychics have, whatever that is. A verifiable example of psychic phenomena is illustrated on the Court TV show “Psychic Detectives”. These are documented accounts of psychics who provide the police with details of homicides, details the police don’t have, and this information gives the police direction in their investigations. Many of these details are verified as spot-on when the case is solved. The common statement made by detectives when summing up the case is that they were skeptical about using a psychic, but they felt they had nothing to lose, and now they are believers. Are we to conclude that “God” provides this evidence to the psychics? This supposition makes no sense for the simple reason that if “God-did-it”, then “God” would simply give the information directly to the detectives working the case.

[_maklelan]

"Is lack of specificity in prophecy a cause for concern?"

I thought about this for a while once.

If revelation was meant for US in THIS time, why were there no references to things familiar to us?

Cell phones, television, internet, cameras, cars...

Nothing but wars and destruction. Hardly a prophecy.

I would expect something like this;

"I saw in vision strange things. Men conversing with men on the other side of the world. Small boxes containing images of people moving and speaking. Horseless chariots with four wheels."

Other things like space travel, satellites, advances in medicine.

NOTHING!!!

Some prophets, eh?

Revelation 9 and Ezekiel are often pointed to as examples of ancient oriental descriptions of things like astronauts and helicopters and tanks and the like. Fun stuff.

[_Quantumwave]

"Is lack of specificity in prophecy a cause for concern?"

I thought about this for a while once.

If revelation was meant for US in THIS time, why were there no references to things familiar to us?

Cell phones, television, internet, cameras, cars...

Nothing but wars and destruction. Hardly a prophecy.

I would expect something like this;

"I saw in vision strange things. Men conversing with men on the other side of the world. Small boxes containing images of people moving and speaking. Horseless chariots with four wheels."

Other things like space travel, satellites, advances in medicine.

NOTHING!!!

Some prophets, eh?

Revelation 9 and Ezekiel are often pointed to as examples of ancient oriental descriptions of things like astronauts and helicopters and tanks and the like. Fun stuff.

I found nothing in Revelation 9 or Ezekiel that referred to astronauts, helicopters tanks or anything like that. Did I miss something?

Mak, how about pointing them out?

[_Draig Goch]

Revelation 9 and Ezekiel are often pointed to as examples of ancient oriental descriptions of things like astronauts and helicopters and tanks and the like. Fun stuff.

You'd be hard pressed to show anything descriptive in Revelation 9.

Tanks and helicopters? An enormous stretch, Mak.

I would not expect the ancients to refer to a device specifically ("cell phone", "television") although I suppose god could have told the prophet what the names were. There is absolutely nothing that could be shown that "prophets" saw our time as it is now. How difficult could it be to explain a car and driver?

"I saw in vision a man sitting inside a horseless chariot. In his hands he held a wheel that directed the chariot in whatever way he had a mind to go. God also explained, to me, the wonders of the combustion engine. The sons of man did remove from deep within the Earth, great quantities of thick black liquid - and did many miraculous things to it, which rendered it into a means by which to propel the chariot over great distances."

Please. If Revelations is what you consider prophetic visions then I submit that Nostradamus was more of a Seer than the biblical fellas were.

But, if it squares with you - enjoy.

[Guest]

I think the above is the strongest, clearest prophecy of Joseph's (and of course it came true).

Canonized, I believe, after the war happened, but written before, is that right?

Except for the unfortuante fact that verse 2 didn't happen.

The usual explanation is something like, "well, this was a reference to the future, you know, WW I and WW II." Unfortunately, however, verse 2 is sandwiched in between verse 1 and verse 5, all of which clearly apply to Joseph Smith's time.

So, why would God insert an obscure reference to wars in a future century sandwiched between statements clearly applicable to the 19th century of Joseph Smith's time?

Besides, making general and vague statements that there will be wars is hardly takes a prophetic gift.

I think there was pleny going on in the social and political mileau of Joseph Smith's time to predict that America might descend into civil war.

Wasn't this about the time of the South Carolina nullification controversy? (That was during the Jackson Admin). It didn't take a prophet to take notice that So. Carolina was a potential trouble spot.

I don't have the years in front of me, but out of curiosity, what year was this prophecy, and what year did John Brown attack Harper's Ferry?