Is lack of specificity in prophecy a cause for concern?

[_MormonMendacity]

I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

I am familiar with the many apologetic explanations of this revelation. They appear to point out everything that could explain the event either not occuring or having occurred and we don't know it or aren't recognizing it.

I would like those of you who are interested to opine on a couple of things that interest me about this revelation specifically and all revelations in general.

According to an on-line dictionary, which I do not grant automatic authority on the definition:

Theology A manifestation of divine will or truth.

1. Why should skeptical people be expected to believe that a vague pronouncement is a revelation, i.e. a manifestation of divine will or truth?
2. What benefit is a revelation that has no constraints put on it? I have used particular example for purposes of discussion, but much of what is revealed about future events appears to leave the reader with no ability to test the person pronouncing it until -- well, the event has to occur, it appears, and we don't know when that will be.

I read the Book of Mormon extensively during my life and I was troubled by the threats that non-believers made to the believers in 3rd Nephi 1 regarding the prophecies about the coming of Jesus.

9 Now it came to pass that there was a day set apart by the unbelievers, that all those who believed in those traditions should be put to death except the sign should come to pass, which had been given by Samuel the prophet.

What troubles me is the outlandish nature of that supposed threat and the fact that nothing similar has occurred in our times. I'm sure that different circumstances could be argued, but if there was anyone who apparenty was pursecuted for his religion it is claimed that Joseph Smith was. And yet, I know of no one who has threatened the Latter-Day Saints because of prophecies regarding the 2nd Coming.

Interestingly, I worked with a man in the mid 90's who was a big follower of Harold Camping. As I recall the events, Camping had determined the 2nd Coming to be coming based upon his numerological investigations.

Harold Camping in his book "Are You Ready?" predicted the Lord's return in Sept 1994. The book was full of numerology that added up to 1994 as the date of Christ's return.

End of the world dates) (Popup warning) (I can't seem to post this link as clickable...dunno why.)

My co-worker sent letters to all his friends and co-workers admonishing them to repent and he even took the prescribed day off and literally sat on his roof awaiting the rapture -- much to the chagrin of his wife. I do not mock him nor anyone who believes in a literal rapture or that there will be a date when Jesus will return to gather up followers. I have a personal understanding of the feelings a devout follower of any sect might have for the prophecies in which they believe.

But why shouldn't prophets be required by society to put up or shut up? (Maybe not with threats of death...but some type of specifics?) Rev. Camping and his followers probably suffered much from the events, as did my co-worker, but ultimately why shouldn't these men be held accountable?

Freedom of religion appears to play right into the hands of charlatans.

[_Gazelam]

I always took this prophecy as Gods way of teling Joseph to Shut up and quit asking. It seems Joseph had a history of asking for things he shouldent. This led to both the 116 pages being lost and also the restoration of Polygamy. I can't remember where I read it, but I heard God tried to give Joseph an out before revealing Polygamy, and Joseph being hungry for knowledge insisted God teach it to him.

This is not so much a criticism of the Prophet, as it is just a funny observation.

Gaz

[_ajax18]

I know that most modern prophecies if they really do give any, are very nonspecific and have a huge amount of stretch to be used if necessary. Hence they can mean anything and don't seem to really mean anything at all.

I bet conferences were exciting during the time of Joseph Smith, even as late as J. Golden Kimball or J. Reuben Clark. I think we have totally lost that in the modern Church, probably because of the scenario you outlined above. I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing.

[_Guardiands]

A great question Mormon, but I do struggle with the example. The next verse makes it clear that it was even vague to Joseph, and wasn't even meant to really give any information, but as was earlier mentioned, seems to just be given to "shut Joseph up. "

Next verse reads: "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."

But your points are very applicable to the majority of prophecies in the Bible and Doctrine and Covenants. Take the prophecy that they would build the temple in Jackson County, a prophecy given without conditions, then later said it wasn't going to happen when prophecies because of the "wickedness". At least I think it was build a temple...forget the details now, guess I need to start going to more scripture studies.......

Or just look at Jonah, boy was he ticked that his prophecy didn't come true.

The funny thing is prophecy has no purpose if it is vauge, for no one knows what it is talking about. Seems to me we only get the "explanations" of a prophecy after it passed. So what good is that?

[_MormonMendacity]

A great question Mormon, but I do struggle with the example. The next verse makes it clear that it was even vague to Joseph, and wasn't even meant to really give any information, but as was earlier mentioned, seems to just be given to "shut Joseph up. "

Next verse reads: "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."

But your points are very applicable to the majority of prophecies in the Bible and Doctrine and Covenants. Take the prophecy that they would build the temple in Jackson County, a prophecy given without conditions, then later said it wasn't going to happen when prophecies because of the "wickedness". At least I think it was build a temple...forget the details now, guess I need to start going to more scripture studies.......

Or just look at Jonah, boy was he ticked that his prophecy didn't come true.

The funny thing is prophecy has no purpose if it is vauge, for no one knows what it is talking about. Seems to me we only get the "explanations" of a prophecy after it passed. So what good is that?

All you say is true, but I was wondering at why Joseph would include it except for the woo-woo factor. "I asked God, he told me this." -- And then we all chat it up and wonder about what it all means. The "promise" in Moroni 10:4&5, James 1:4-8, etc. all strike me very much like this "revelation".

He might just as well have said, "Behold. I asked the Lord when he'd come again and he answered 'yes'. I was left to ponder if he meant that he was the lord or whether he understood the question and would get back to me on that, or if I had just had a minor stroke. Whatever, I am confident that I did ask of the lord."

Of course, I jest, but these seem meaningless, cherry picking revelations that would be better left out of a supposed Book of Covenants since they tell us almost nothing that couldn't be inferred from the fact that Jesus hadn't already come for almost 2,000 years.

[_leeirons]

Of course, I jest, but these seem meaningless, cherry picking revelations that would be better left out of a supposed Book of Covenants since they tell us almost nothing that couldn't be inferred from the fact that Jesus hadn't already come for almost 2,000 years.

Why?

Some possible reasons:

1. The LDS Church claiming to be the one to usher in the second coming, it seems perfectly reasonable for this question to be addressed somewhere in latter-day scripture.

2. It is consistent with other scriptures that say that no one knows the time of the second coming except God. Thus, it was included to be another testament of this.

3. Covenants are related to the second coming, being focused toward the building up of the kingdom of God on Earth until Jesus returns again.

4. The Lord wanted examples of the type of prayerful questioning that is not productive.

[_MormonMendacity]

Of course, I jest, but these seem meaningless, cherry picking revelations that would be better left out of a supposed Book of Covenants since they tell us almost nothing that couldn't be inferred from the fact that Jesus hadn't already come for almost 2,000 years.

Why?

Some possible reasons:

1. The LDS Church claiming to be the one to usher in the second coming, it seems perfectly reasonable for this question to be addressed somewhere in latter-day scripture.

2. It is consistent with other scriptures that say that no one knows the time of the second coming except God. Thus, it was included to be another testament of this.

3. Covenants are related to the second coming, being focused toward the building up of the kingdom of God on Earth until Jesus returns again.

4. The Lord wanted examples of the type of prayerful questioning that is not productive.

Thanks, Lee. I appreciate your comments.

The answers do not work for me now as they once did. I can accept that's how you explain them but not that they actually do any explaining. If you look from the standpoint that the Joseph's claims to divine inspiration are fraudulent then perhaps the Lord wasn't involved in this conversation at all...and there are a lot of Joseph's claims that now appear to be fraudulent to me.

[_leeirons]

What do you think about the following? It seems pretty specific. Or do you think this was a common expectation of most people living at that time, but Joseph Smith wrote it down so as to appear to be a prophet to those of us living today, since we would have lost memory of such common community opinion by now?

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 87
Revelation and prophecy on war, given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, December 25, 1832. HC 1: 301–302. This section was received at a time when the brethren were reflecting and reasoning upon African slavery on the American continent and the slavery of the children of men throughout the world.
1–4, War foretold between the Northern States and the Southern States; 5–8, Great calamities shall fall upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

[_Guardiands]

I think the above is the strongest, clearest prophecy of Joseph's (and of course it came true).

Canonized, I believe, after the war happened, but written before, is that right?

[_Mercury]

I always took this prophecy as Gods way of teling Joseph to Shut up and quit asking. It seems Joseph had a history of asking for things he shouldent. This led to both the 116 pages being lost and also the restoration of Polygamy. I can't remember where I read it, but I heard God tried to give Joseph an out before revealing Polygamy, and Joseph being hungry for knowledge insisted God teach it to him.

This is not so much a criticism of the Prophet, as it is just a funny observation.

Gaz

How can something unrelated to christianity (Polygamy) be "restored"?