Statues of Moroni - Graven images?

[_ozemc]

Why did Moroni end up as an angel, and not as a god?

The argument I've heard on this one is that when the scriptures are discussing "the Angel Moroni", they are using the term "angel" as equivolent with "messenger".

Moroni is bringing God's message, therefore, he is an angel of God.

This would not preclude Moroni from being fully exhalted.

Most Christian religions seperate people who have died from the angels. That is, angels were a specially created class of beings that are immortal, while humans were created to be God's children. One doesn't become the other.

How can Moroni be an angel is he was once a man in the first place? Also, if Moroni is God's messenger, why is he not mentioned in the Bible, like all the other named angels?

First, let me point out that Mormons are not "most Christians". The only thing that makes us Christian is that we worship Jesus. We differ from "most Christians" on just about everything else.

Second, Angels are not some different species, according to Mormons. Angels are one of the steps of exaltation. Those who make it to the Celestial Kingdom but not the top of the Celestial Kingdom will become angels. Kinda like graduating from college with a BA, but not a PhD.

Third, Mormons don't believe that everything needful is mentioned in the Bible. Just because Moroni and the other messengers/angels aren't mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean they aren't angels or didn't exist. Mormons believe they existed in the Book of Mormon. To many Mormons, that puts them a step above Biblical angels.

Yes, I do believe you do differ from "most Christians", even your Christ is different. From what I've heard, Jesus and Lucifer were spirit brothers. That is, shall we say, radically different from the mainstream of Christianity. I do not believe that you worship the same Jesus as most other christian denominations. I would hesitate to call Mormonism "Christian" in the mainstream sense; at best, it is a christian cult.

I do have a question about the angels being a step of exaltation though.

As I understand it, according to Mormon theology, we started as spirit children who, for God's purposes, were sent to live in human bodies so that we could prove our worthiness to Him (through tenets of the church, temple marrigages, etc.) to go back to live with Him, where we started. And, if we're really, really good, we end up as a God, just like Him. In other words, exalted.

Now, if angels are just another step in the exaltation pocess, where does that leave Lucifer and his "fallen angels"? How can they be angels, yet never have been human? Or, are they not really angels? If not, what are they?

Why would God have hierarchies in heaven anyway? If you believe that Christ died for all, and all are one in him, then doesn't it make sense that all will be one with Him in Heaven? Sin is sin. According to scripture, all sin is wiped clean when you accept Jesus as your savior; the past is forgotten. Why would God make some angels, and some go to a higher arena? Doesn't sound very forgiving to me.

What the Mormon church seems to be saying is "yes, but, you will always know what you did was wrong, and so you won't be comfortable with those more holy than you. You not really righteous enough to make it the the highest level of Heaven."

To the rest of us out here, that is a very elitist, bigoted, and un-christlike attitude.

[_Yoda]

To the rest of us out here, that is a very elitist, bigoted, and un-christlike attitude.

Some of us within the LDS culture feel the same way. ;)

[_Mercury]

No. Since the Final Judgment hasn't taken place yet, no one has entered any of the three final kingdoms (and hence no one has become a god,) including Moroni.

Of course, this doctrine is contradicted by the D&C scripture which says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are no longer angels but are gods, but most active Mormons have shelved the contradiction.

Didn't Joseph Smith have a "vision" in which he saw his brother in the Celestial Kingdom?

[_harmony]

No. Since the Final Judgment hasn't taken place yet, no one has entered any of the three final kingdoms (and hence no one has become a god,) including Moroni.

Of course, this doctrine is contradicted by the D&C scripture which says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are no longer angels but are gods, but most active Mormons have shelved the contradiction.

Didn't Joseph Smith have a "vision" in which he saw his brother in the Celestial Kingdom?

And it was every bit as valid as his vision of the angel with the flaming sword who threatened to kill him if he didn't practice plural marriage. Another of those "yeah, right" revelations.

[_harmony]

Yes, I do believe you do differ from "most Christians", even your Christ is different. From what I've heard, Jesus and Lucifer were spirit brothers. That is, shall we say, radically different from the mainstream of Christianity. I do not believe that you worship the same Jesus as most other christian denominations. I would hesitate to call Mormonism "Christian" in the mainstream sense; at best, it is a christian cult.

Yeah, we believe God has a body, parts, and passions. That definitely separates us from the Nicene Creed folks who believe in some amorphous shapechanger. Don't kid me, hon. I used to be a Baptist.

I do have a question about the angels being a step of exaltation though.

They aren't a step. They're someone's end result (at least as it's been explained to me).

[As I understand it, according to Mormon theology, we started as spirit children who, for God's purposes, were sent to live in human bodies so that we could prove our worthiness to Him (through tenets of the church, temple marrigages, etc.) to go back to live with Him, where we started. And, if we're really, really good, we end up as a God, just like Him. In other words, exalted.

Everyone is exalted. Depending on your life and what you did with it, you are placed in the kingdom you'll be most comfortable in.

Now, if angels are just another step in the exaltation pocess, where does that leave Lucifer and his "fallen angels"? How can they be angels, yet never have been human? Or, are they not really angels? If not, what are they?

Lucifer and his followers get Outer Darkness. They never get a body. Sons of Perdition also get Outer Darkness. Sons of Perdition are those who knew the truth and deliberately turn their backs on it and work against it.

Why would God have hierarchies in heaven anyway? If you believe that Christ died for all, and all are one in him, then doesn't it make sense that all will be one with Him in Heaven? Sin is sin. According to scripture, all sin is wiped clean when you accept Jesus as your savior; the past is forgotten. Why would God make some angels, and some go to a higher arena? Doesn't sound very forgiving to me.

You get what you deserve. It's that simple. In front of the Judgment Bar, your entire life will be there to see. You will know what you deserve, and will be glad to have it.

What the Mormon church seems to be saying is "yes, but, you will always know what you did was wrong, and so you won't be comfortable with those more holy than you. You not really righteous enough to make it the the highest level of Heaven."

Personally, I think we'll all be surprised at who ends up where. I expect that many of our GA's think they'll end up in the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom, but observing some of their actions, I'd say they're going to be doing well if they get to the Terrestial. And I'll tell ya, if Packer is in the highest kingdom, I don't want to be there.

To the rest of us out here, that is a very elitist, bigoted, and un-christlike attitude.

I can think of a few different descriptors than those, but we'll go with what you said.

[_ozemc]

Yeah, we believe God has a body, parts, and passions. That definitely separates us from the Nicene Creed folks who believe in some amorphous shapechanger. Don't kid me, hon. I used to be a Baptist.

God has a body? So, what does God breathe in Heaven? Does He have to eat?
If you want to believe in the scripture, God is a spirit. Says so many, many times.
Look at the sky tonight. See how many stars you can see. Then realize you aren't seeing but a miniscule amount of what's there. Now, God is greater than all that. No, whomever or whatever God is, He doesn't have a body.

They aren't a step. They're someone's end result (at least as it's been explained to me).

Everyone is exalted. Depending on your life and what you did with it, you are placed in the kingdom you'll be most comfortable in.

See, that's what I mean. If Christ died for all our sins, then all our sins are gone, in His eyes. Why would it matter what you did? It's gone; not remembered. Why would He die for all our sins, if some of the sins weren't really forgiven, or forgotten?

I can just imagine the conversation:
Jesus: "Well, Fred, you know you really did some bad things, but you accepted me as your savior.
Fred: "Great, then we can go to Heaven together?"
Jesus: "Well, no Fred, remember that really bad thing you did?"
Fred: "Yeah?"
Jesus: "Well, I can't really forgive you for THAT one, so you have to go somewhere else. Don't worry, it's nice, but just not with me. Don't worry, you'll be happy."
Fred: "But, Jesus, I thought you forgave ALL my sins"
Jesus: "Oh you silly boy, you really didn't think I could forgive THAT!" (Laughs)
Jesus: "Now, you run along while I commune with the really good people. Don't call me, I'll call you!"

You get what you deserve. It's that simple. In front of the Judgment Bar, your entire life will be there to see. You will know what you deserve, and will be glad to have it.

Get what I deserve? I would think that if I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, then I would "deserve" to be with Him for eternity. After all, Isn't that what He said?

Whatever happened to "judge not, lest ye be judged"? This is NOT the way of the cross.

What the Mormon church seems to be saying is "yes, but, you will always know what you did was wrong, and so you won't be comfortable with those more holy than you. You not really righteous enough to make it the the highest level of Heaven."

Personally, I think we'll all be surprised at who ends up where. I expect that many of our GA's think they'll end up in the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom, but observing some of their actions, I'd say they're going to be doing well if they get to the Terrestial. And I'll tell ya, if Packer is in the highest kingdom, I don't want to be there.

Actually, it sounds like they should be being fitted for asbestos suits! :-)

To the rest of us out here, that is a very elitist, bigoted, and un-christlike attitude.

I can think of a few different descriptors than those, but we'll go with what you said.

[_Mercury]

God has a body? So, what does God breathe in Heaven? Does He have to eat?
If you want to believe in the scripture, God is a spirit. Says so many, many times.
Look at the sky tonight. See how many stars you can see. Then realize you aren't seeing but a miniscule amount of what's there. Now, God is greater than all that. No, whomever or whatever God is, He doesn't have a body.

What scripture specifically? The songs of the aboriginal people?

How about the Koran?

Or the Book of Mormon. Hmm.

I'd say the Book of Mormon is more closer to books about Atlantis "theory" in the seventies or Ancient Astronaut "theory" seen inthe 1930's.

Bah Humbug all of it!!!!!!!!

[_ozemc]

God has a body? So, what does God breathe in Heaven? Does He have to eat?
If you want to believe in the scripture, God is a spirit. Says so many, many times.
Look at the sky tonight. See how many stars you can see. Then realize you aren't seeing but a miniscule amount of what's there. Now, God is greater than all that. No, whomever or whatever God is, He doesn't have a body.

What scripture specifically? The songs of the aboriginal people?

How about the Koran?

Or the Book of Mormon. Hmm.

I'd say the Book of Mormon is more closer to books about Atlantis "theory" in the seventies or Ancient Astronaut "theory" seen inthe 1930's.

Bah Humbug all of it!!!!!!!!

Well, like I said, if you want to believe in scripture, it is in the Bible, and, if I'm not mistaken, the Book of Mormon as well.

What I was postulating was that if you are going to base your beliefs on what you consider sacred writings, then you should read what's written in them. If they are God's word, then EVERY part of it is true; you can't be a "cafeteria christian", picking the parts you like, and discarding the rest.

Now, if you don't believe it's God's word, then you can't really use it for an argument.

[_Runtu]

God has a body? So, what does God breathe in Heaven? Does He have to eat?
If you want to believe in the scripture, God is a spirit. Says so many, many times.
Look at the sky tonight. See how many stars you can see. Then realize you aren't seeing but a miniscule amount of what's there. Now, God is greater than all that. No, whomever or whatever God is, He doesn't have a body.

Just so you know, you're not going to go very far arguing against an anthopomorphic God with Mormons. The First Vision and D&C 130 trump all else for the LDS.

See, that's what I mean. If Christ died for all our sins, then all our sins are gone, in His eyes. Why would it matter what you did? It's gone; not remembered. Why would He die for all our sins, if some of the sins weren't really forgiven, or forgotten?

I can just imagine the conversation:
Jesus: "Well, Fred, you know you really did some bad things, but you accepted me as your savior.
Fred: "Great, then we can go to Heaven together?"
Jesus: "Well, no Fred, remember that really bad thing you did?"
Fred: "Yeah?"
Jesus: "Well, I can't really forgive you for THAT one, so you have to go somewhere else. Don't worry, it's nice, but just not with me. Don't worry, you'll be happy."
Fred: "But, Jesus, I thought you forgave ALL my sins"
Jesus: "Oh you silly boy, you really didn't think I could forgive THAT!" (Laughs)
Jesus: "Now, you run along while I commune with the really good people. Don't call me, I'll call you!"

I'm not a believing Mormon, but you're looking at this the wrong way. Mormons believe that everyone gets what they deserve. Those who accept the Savior by covenant are exalted with him. Those who don't are given the kingdom they would be comfortable with.

Let's use your example:

LDS version
Jesus: Fred, you never did accept me as your Savior, but you were a decent guy. You will inherit a mansion in my kingdom anyway.

Mainstream Christian version
Jesus: Fred, you never did accept me as your Savior, so it doesn't matter that you were a decent guy. You're going to hell.

An oversimplification? Obviously, but so is yours.

Get what I deserve? I would think that if I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, then I would "deserve" to be with Him for eternity. After all, Isn't that what He said?

Whatever happened to "judge not, lest ye be judged"? This is NOT the way of the cross.

Oddly enough, LDS teaching is that if you accept Jesus, you will be with him for eternity. I'm not sure what you're quibbling about.

Actually, it sounds like they should be being fitted for asbestos suits! :-)

If there's any justice in the world, you're right.

[_ozemc]

See, that's what I mean. If Christ died for all our sins, then all our sins are gone, in His eyes. Why would it matter what you did? It's gone; not remembered. Why would He die for all our sins, if some of the sins weren't really forgiven, or forgotten?

I can just imagine the conversation:
Jesus: "Well, Fred, you know you really did some bad things, but you accepted me as your savior.
Fred: "Great, then we can go to Heaven together?"
Jesus: "Well, no Fred, remember that really bad thing you did?"
Fred: "Yeah?"
Jesus: "Well, I can't really forgive you for THAT one, so you have to go somewhere else. Don't worry, it's nice, but just not with me. Don't worry, you'll be happy."
Fred: "But, Jesus, I thought you forgave ALL my sins"
Jesus: "Oh you silly boy, you really didn't think I could forgive THAT!" (Laughs)
Jesus: "Now, you run along while I commune with the really good people. Don't call me, I'll call you!"

I'm not a believing Mormon, but you're looking at this the wrong way. Mormons believe that everyone gets what they deserve. Those who accept the Savior by covenant are exalted with him. Those who don't are given the kingdom they would be comfortable with.

Let's use your example:

LDS version
Jesus: Fred, you never did accept me as your Savior, but you were a decent guy. You will inherit a mansion in my kingdom anyway.

Mainstream Christian version
Jesus: Fred, you never did accept me as your Savior, so it doesn't matter that you were a decent guy. You're going to hell.

An oversimplification? Obviously, but so is yours.

However, mine is in the Bible, which supposedly the LDS church accepts as scripture. Getting to go to Heaven without accepting Christ is non-biblical. What's the point of a savior if you get to go anyway?

Get what I deserve? I would think that if I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, then I would "deserve" to be with Him for eternity. After all, Isn't that what He said?

Whatever happened to "judge not, lest ye be judged"? This is NOT the way of the cross.

Oddly enough, LDS teaching is that if you accept Jesus, you will be with him for eternity. I'm not sure what you're quibbling about.

The LDS church does not teach the same Jesus. The LDS Jesus is a spirit brother of Lucifer, and is one of, I guess, 3 different gods of "The Godhead". Sounds polytheistic.

I thought that the LDS church taught that you had to be good enough to make it to the highest level of heaven. That's what was told to me by missionaries, and what I've read.

Maybe these people were wrong, but they seemed to indicate that the highest level had God the Father, the 2nd level had God the Son, and the 3rd level had the Holy Spirit.

Hence my view of Christ saying to someone "Well, you won't be with me, but you'll still be in A heaven." (Terrestrial?)

That just doesn't make sense. Like I said elsewhere, if you believe in the scriptures, you go to be with Jesus, or you don't. There's not any different levels like some sort of cosmic video game.