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ozemc wrote:Making any sort of statue, or painting, or what have you and using it for any sort of religious purpose, i.e. even as a symbol of the temple, . . .

Moroni is a symbol on the temple, not a symbol of the temple.

. . . or as a reminder of what Christ was or did, or as a rendering of what He looked like, is forbidden by this passage. Anything that takes your focus off of God, and puts it on something else, is wrong.

What about all those paintings of Christ over the years? Are those wrong, too?

Dr. Shades wrote:

ozemc wrote:Making any sort of statue, or painting, or what have you and using it for any sort of religious purpose, i.e. even as a symbol of the temple, . . .

Moroni is a symbol on the temple, not a symbol of the temple.

. . . or as a reminder of what Christ was or did, or as a rendering of what He looked like, is forbidden by this passage. Anything that takes your focus off of God, and puts it on something else, is wrong.

What about all those paintings of Christ over the years? Are those wrong, too?

I don't think so, but ... there were many in the church that believed that it WAS wrong for there to be those paintings. There were many religious icons destroyed over the years just because of this passage.

Not just in Christianity either, mind you, look at the Buddha statues that were destroyed in Afghanistan by the Taliban.

ozemc wrote:

Jason Bourne wrote:

To anwer the OP here-No. The statue of Moroni is not an graven image. Do you think the Christus inthe VC on Temple Square is a graven image?

Well, if you want to follow the Ten Commandments, yes, it is.

To quote the relevant passage again:

Exodus 20:4-6
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Making any sort of statue, or painting, or what have you and using it for any sort of religious purpose, i.e. even as a symbol of the temple, or as a reminder of what Christ was or did, or as a rendering of what He looked like, is forbidden by this passage. Anything that takes your focus off of God, and puts it on something else, is wrong.

Now, whether you actualy believe it or not is a different story, but, it you do believe it, and use the statue on the temple as a remembrance, etc., then you're going against the commandment.

Oh horse manure.

Jason Bourne wrote:

ozemc wrote:

Jason Bourne wrote:

To anwer the OP here-No. The statue of Moroni is not an graven image. Do you think the Christus inthe VC on Temple Square is a graven image?

Well, if you want to follow the Ten Commandments, yes, it is.

To quote the relevant passage again:

Exodus 20:4-6
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Making any sort of statue, or painting, or what have you and using it for any sort of religious purpose, i.e. even as a symbol of the temple, or as a reminder of what Christ was or did, or as a rendering of what He looked like, is forbidden by this passage. Anything that takes your focus off of God, and puts it on something else, is wrong.

Now, whether you actualy believe it or not is a different story, but, it you do believe it, and use the statue on the temple as a remembrance, etc., then you're going against the commandment.

Oh horse manure.

I happen to agree with you, Mr. Bourne.

I'm one of those crazy guys who actually listen to what people say, and notice the disconnects.

(Both Bourne movies are great movies, by the way!)

ozemc wrote:I was by a temple the other day, and, for some reason, while looking at the statue of Moroni, the words of Exodus 20:4 came to mind:

"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Now, is it just me, or are the statues found on most temples really any different from the golden calf that the ancient Isrealites made?

If Moroni was really an angel, wouldn't that be placing him in a position of worship? Isn't a statue of an angel "an idol in the form of anything in heaven above"?

As a side note, it is my understanding that the church teaches that if you follow the ways of Mormonism, all the rules and covenants, such as getting married in the temple, that you would be "exalted" and become a god. i am reminded of the couplet that teaches "As man is, God oWce was; as God is, man may become". (I think that's right ... President Snow?)

Why did Moroni end up as an angel, and not as a god? Wouldn't that make him a poor choice to give the plates to Joseph Smith, and especially to put on top of temples?

Yikes. Hmm...This article would do a lot of good to read:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php ... e=cmV2aWV3

Many people misunderstand the commandment because of an unfamiliarity with Hebrew and the original form of the text. Basically, the golden calf was a symbol of Jehovah, and the sin was in including an image in their actual worship. There's nothing wrong with making the image (why didn't Aaron receive any punishment? After all, he was the one who made it.), the problem is when the image is incorporated in the worship. This is while you'll never see statues and paintings inside the chapel during a sacrament meeting, and this is why members are discouraged from including visual aids in sacrament talks. Moroni is not incorporated into worship in any way, so his statue breaks no commandments.

To the person who insisted there are occult symbols all over the Temple: Symbols have many different meanings. Anyone who insists that any particular symbol can only mean one thing or be relevant to one group doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.

The image for a bull as a Christ type is a very old one, like the horns on the egyptian headresses and many other places.

I see a symbolism in the "driveing together" phrase etc...

Do you have any insight you can share with this symbolism?

Gaz

The article I posted has several good points, but a basic overview is that in the Ancient Near East they associated their gods with fertile and powerful animals. If your culture's god was to be respected it had to be personified as aggressive and powerful. It also had to represent life and prosperity. When it refers to the "strength" of a god in an ancient text it is often actually referring to its virility. In Hebrew, however, the word often translated "strength" is more accurately translated "ox." The "strength of Israel" designation is more accurately rendered the "Bull" or "Ox of Israel." This was Elohim's designation. What do we call a bull's offspring? A calf. What does a calf represent? Jehovah, the son of Elohim. That's a little presumptuous, but it makes perfect sense, just like the fact that in Hebrew, Jehovah Elohim (LORD God) is literally "He who causes gods to be." Anyway, the golden calf is merely a representation of Jehovah, and is not in violation of any commandment.

The difference between these perceptions and what people think today is that no one back then really believed the animal or the statue was the god, they only represented the god. Ba'al is sometimes depicted as standing over a bull, and other times only the bull is shown. Think of the mercy seat. God's presence was found over that box. It was carried around on poles to represent the presence of the Lord, just as other cultures carried images of animals and gods around on poles. Being yoked with Christ is apropos, I suppose. Those who find the idea that Israel would use an animal to represent their God as ridiculous would do well to note that God (in the various representations of the godhead) is represented as a lamb, a serpent, a dove, an ox, bread, water, and a grape vine.

Thanks for that.

When studying God that image of a calf or Bull pops up alot. You'd see the horns and what-not all over the place.

What about the serpent? Why the serpent on the pole when Moses was healing them from the infestation, any comment on that?

Gaz

Gazelam wrote:Thanks for that.

When studying God that image of a calf or Bull pops up alot. You'd see the horns and what-not all over the place.

Yeah, most of the temple furniture has horns. Go figure.

Gazelam wrote:What about the serpent? Why the serpent on the pole when Moses was healing them from the infestation, any comment on that?

Gaz

I actually haven't spent much time researching that, but it's a good question. All I can figure is that the healing had some relationship with the actual poisening, but I haven't devoted any real time to it.