Is Jesus the Christ?

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_Ray A

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Ray A »

Who Knows wrote:Anyways, let me try something else. Tell me whether you think the following individuals were frauds:

James Strange
Joseph Smith III
Warren Jeffs
David Koresh
Televangelists (the dudes on tv in the big stadiums who are 'miraculously' healing people - and then asking for donations)
L. Ron Hubbard

That should be enough.


I presume the first one is Strang? I think Strang was delusional, and deluded.
Joseph Smith III was also delusional, particularly in his belief that his father never practised polygamy.
Warren Jeffs I don't know much about, because I don't follow FLDS closely, but he comes under sociopath, possibly fraud.
Koresh. Here is one commentary on Koresh:

First, America must take a long, hard look at Vernon Howell, later known to the world as David Koresh, because among cult leaders, he is not atypical. It seems they are all the same. As I travel the country and delve into different destructive cults, I meet the same cult leader over and over again. Only the names are different. They are self-obsessed, egomaniacal, sociopathic, and heartless individuals with no regard whatsoever for their followers. They seek only their personal aggrandizement, financial well-being and physical pleasure. Such leaders exercise total control over their followers. The personalities of those adherents have been dismantled by systematic brainwashing to the point where the leader’s desires become their own. Cult victims and fanatical followers of radical sects are deceived, lied to, manipulated and ultimately exploited. They number in the millions.


It would be extreme to put Joseph Smith in this category. Koresh was accused by former members of rape and child abuse, so he could come under fraud, totally delusional and out for personal gain, a cunning manipulator.

L. Ron Hubbard. In 1984 a justice of the High Court said:

"Scientology is both immoral and socially obnoxious...It is corrupt sinister and dangerous. It is corrupt because it is based on lies and deceit and has its real objective money and power for Mr. Hubbard... It is sinister because it indulges in infamous practices both to its adherents who do not toe the line unquestioningly and to those who criticize it or oppose it. It is dangerous because it is out to capture people and to indoctrinate and brainwash them so they become the unquestioning captives and tools of the cult, withdrawn from ordinary thought, living, and relationships with others." -- Justice Latey, ruling in the High Court of London.


Has that been said about Mormonism today? So I would say Hubbard was a fraud. But Tom Cruise would not agree with me.

Hubbard was also accused of physical abuse and kidnapping, and another Judge said:

"In addition to violating and abusing its own members' civil rights, the organization [Scientology] over the years with its "Fair Game" doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in the Church whom it perceives as enemies. The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and the bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder LRH [L. Ron Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background, and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile. At the same time it appears that he is charismatic and highly capable of motivating, organizing, controlling, manipulating, and inspiring his adherents." -- Superior Court Judge Paul Breckinridge, Church of Scientology of California vs. Gerald Armstrong, June 20 1984.[39]


Joseph Smith certainly lied on occasions, but he was not a "pathological liar". There is little doubt that Dianetics influenced many people, and continues to have followers, but I see few significant comparisons with Joseph Smith, who organised a church with quorums to keep him in check as well. Remember he had to sustain two counselors in the FP that he didn't want, because of the Law of Common Consent. Did Hubbard ever say "I teach them correct principles, they govern themselves"?
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

My point wasn't to compare people to Joseph Smith. My point was to find out what basis you're using to determine if someone is a fraud or not.

edit - misread what you wrote.

Also, you didn't answer about the televangelists.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Who Knows wrote:My point wasn't to compare people to Joseph Smith. My point was to find out what basis you're using to determine if someone is a fraud or not.

From what I can tell, you only consider someone a fraud if they themselves have admitted as much. Is this correct?

Also, you didn't answer about the televangelists.


As I mentioned earlier, fraud can be a subjective definition. Not always, as in the cases of Koresh and Hubbard, I do believe they were frauds.

No, the person does not have to admit fraud to be a fraud, but I think there at least has to be a smoking gun, something, or things, which most would agree is fraudulent (not delusional). Most seem to agree with the ones I've listed as fraud.

In regard to the televangelists, how can anyone straight-jacket them? Is Billy Graham a fraud? (Even while retired on $200,000 a year, according to Noel.) Is every televangelist a fraud? I don't even think Haggard was a fraud. Hypocrite yes, liar yes, but in the end he owned up, confessed, and ended up in disgrace. I still don't think he was a fraud. Even though he was caught in the act, so to speak, in the end he showed some dignity. He can't by any means be compared to Koresh or Hubbard.
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Ray A wrote:No, the person does not have to admit fraud to be a fraud,


Yeah, sorry, I misread your post - see my edit above.

but I think there at least has to be a smoking gun, something, or things, which most would agree is fraudulent (not delusional).


What of Koresh or Hubbard indicates fraud vs. delusion? What specifically is it about their stories that indicates fraud, instead of delusion? What is the smoking gun in their cases?

Most seem to agree with the ones I've listed as fraud.


On the surface, I'd say they're all frauds.

In regard to the televangelists, how can anyone straight-jacket them? Is Billy Graham a fraud? (Even while retired on $200,000 a year, according to Noel.) Is every televangelist a fraud? I don't even think Haggard was a fraud. Hypocrite yes, liar yes, but in the end he owned up, confessed, and ended up in disgrace. I still don't think he was a fraud. Even though he was caught in the act, so to speak, in the end he showed some dignity. He can't by any means be compared to Koresh or Hubbard.


I'm just talking about your run of the mill televangelist - the guy you see on tv miraculously healing people - cue the applause, tears, shouting, etc. And then they call for donations after the show. Do they have those shows in Australia/New Zealand (I can't remember where you are)?

i'll be back on the boards a little later...
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Who Knows wrote:
What of Koresh or Hubbard indicates fraud vs. delusion? What specifically is it about their stories that indicates fraud, instead of delusion? What is the smoking gun in their cases?


The smoking gun in Koresh's case should be obvious. He was accused of rape, physical abuse, child abuse. He organised a cult, was an unscrupulous mental and emotional manipulator. His was a "destructive cult" in which followers truly surrendered themselves to him in every regard. There was no choice. No "what the Bible says", no "what the revelations say", you follow Koresh or you're going to hell. Koresh was originally SDA, but what he started was a cult, in the true sense of the word, and it became a personality cult.

L. Ron Hubbard:

He was attended by "Commodore's Messengers", teenaged girls dressed in white hot pants who waited on him hand and foot, bathing and dressing him and even catching the ash from his cigarettes. He had frequent screaming tantrums and instituted brutal punishments such as incarceration in the ship's filthy chain-locker for days or weeks at a time and "overboarding", in which errant crew members were blindfolded, bound and thrown overboard, dropping up to 40 ft. into the cold sea, hoping not to hit the side of the ship with its sharp barnacles on the way down. These punishments were applied to children as well as to adults . He returned to the United States in the mid-1970s and lived for a while in Florida.


You don't seriously see a comparison to Joseph Smith there, do you? This is fraud for personal gain in the "best" self-serving sense of the word. I have always said that Mormonism has "cultic strains", but more and more it's evolving into a major world religion. This should not blind people to its faults and biases. It needs and deserves scrutiny, and criticism may help it to become even more refined.


Who Knows wrote:I'm just talking about your run of the mill televangelist - the guy you see on tv miraculously healing people - cue the applause, tears, shouting, etc. And then they call for donations after the show. Do they have those shows in Australia/New Zealand (I can't remember where you are)?


I'm in Australia, one of the least religious countries in the world. If you check "Location" in every post I do you'll see it. Yes, we do get these programs on Sundays, I think. We used to, but I couldn't be bothered by them and never watch them, if they're still on. I'm not sure how many Aussies watch them either, as sport is the main religion here. Getting someone interested in a religious conversation is like trying to light a match in a cyclone.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Jason Bourne »

harmony wrote:
Makes not just Joseph Smith a liar but all those in Christianity who have claimed divine intervention. Start with Paul and work back.


I have no problem with calling Paul a liar. I think he was as much a liar as any other man. And his ideas about women are... well, let's just say I disagree with them.

Do you think it's possible for Jesus to be the Christ without him being God?


It depends on how you define The Christ.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Did any of you ever read the Rolling Stone article on scientology that came out around the time of the winter olympics? Pretty great read. Apparently Hubbard got together with a guy and performed a Satanic ceremony in the hopes of summoning a literal whore of Babylon to have sex with, didn't work.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Mercury
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Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Mercury »

harmony wrote:Or is Christianity the biggest hoax ever perpetuated on mankind?


Who's christ? As in "is it my christ or the 8th century christ or the buddy christ from Dogma"?


Image
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
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