liz3564 wrote:I have my own theory about this, which is probably blasphemous by most, particularly many of my fellow TBM's....but I personally think that Jesus was the literal son of Mary and Joseph. I do not think he was conceived by the "Holy Ghost overshadowing her" or God having sex with her, as Brigham Young and other prior LDS prophets seem to believe.
If God is God, why couldn't he confer all of the necessary powers to Jesus, whether or not he was a "literal" decendant? He could still be chosen of God to perform the miracles he performed.
As far as the scriptures go, again, I think a lot of the writings are cultural....people trying to make sense out of things during that time period.
There was a group of early Christians called adoptionist that believe Jesus was born as a mortal man, was the greatest teacher, prophet and was a perfect man and that God adopted Him as His son at His baptism. At that point he was infused with the powers that made Him God, or the Son of God.
Makes not just Joseph Smith a liar but all those in Christianity who have claimed divine intervention. Start with Paul and work back.
I have no problem with calling Paul a liar. I think he was as much a liar as any other man. And his ideas about women are... well, let's just say I disagree with them.
Do you think it's possible for Jesus to be the Christ without him being God?
harmony wrote: Do you think it's possible for Jesus to be the Christ without him being God?
The Jewish messiah was not expected to be a supernatural being, and certainly not one who would die and be resurrected three days later. The title "son of God" was given to the kings of Israel (think too of where, in reply to someone who called Jesus "Good master", he replied "why do you call me good, only one is good, that is God"). Jewish theology evolved over centuries BC and AD, and their beliefs concerning the afterlife came late. What is recorded in Nephi is Christian terminology and understanding. Real Jews at the time would not have associated with any of this. The Book of Job is most likely fiction. Interestingly, the Jewish rabbi Maimonides, who lived in the 12th century AD, put together 13 articles of faith:
The 13 Articles of the Jewish Faith, as proposed by Maimonides, are as follows:
1. God exists 2. God is one and unique 3. God is incorporeal 4. God is eternal 5. Prayer is to God only. 6. The prophets spoke truth. 7. Moses was the greatest of the prophets. 8. The Written and Oral Torah were given to Moses. 9. There will be no other Torah. 10. God knows the thoughts and deeds of men. 11. God will reward the good and punish the wicked. 12. The Messiah will come. 13. The dead will be resurrected.
The book, "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" by Laurence Gardner is fascinating reading on a lot of this subject.
Gardner details out the Messianic cultures and traditions which explain A LOT about the supposed "virgin" birth.
Almah or virgin referred to "young girl" in Hebrew.
Apparently, in dynastic marriages, husbands and wives were only allowed to conceive during different times of the year. Mary and Joseph "slipped" and conceived too early. However, because of Joseph's dynastic ties, the "slip" was "forgiven" by the Church authorities, who were referred to as the "Gabriel" and the "Michael".
My view is the Jesus could still be the Savior. He could still be the God of this earth. If God the Father is truly God, he could bestow the powers that Jesus possessed in any manner. The whole idea that he had incest with one of his spirit daughters has always been disgusting in my view.
harmony wrote:If Jesus was just a man and not literally God's son, then Joseph Smith lied. Without Jesus, the Son of God, there is no First Vision. No "this is my beloved son, hear him". Nothing, but lies.
I worked out that one, harmony. It's in line with nearly every religious tradition. I think the safest bet is Buddhism if one doesn't want to rely on history. In regard to your comment, I was actually told by an ex-Mormon in 1988 that by trying to find the truth about the Book of Mormon in archaeology or history I was wasting my time. She said you have to get at the root of the tree, which is Christianity. If Christianity had no firm historical basis, then every religion springing from it was false. In the sense of the historical claims.
Yet another reason Joseph Smith was a fraud.
That was for you Ray. ;)
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Who Knows wrote: Yet another reason Joseph Smith was a fraud.
That was for you Ray. ;)
Campbell doesn't call any mythology "fraud". Nor do I. Looking at it literally, Santa Claus is a fraud.
I wouldn't say Santa Claus is a fraud. However, someone claiming to have met personally with Santa Claus, and then getting people to follow him, and give him money based on that supposed visit with Santa Claus - I would call that person a fraud.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...