Is Jesus the Christ?

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_Who Knows
_Emeritus
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Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Who Knows »

Ray A wrote:
Who Knows wrote:The people who believe in christianity are not frauds. The people who have embellished the christian story (or outright fabricated things) are frauds.


It's not always so black and white. I know from research that at least one pope talked about "the myth of Christ" bringing "us so much profit". That is fraud. Unless we have admissions like this it's hard to know who was sincere, and who was a fraud. Joseph Smith presents a much more complex picture. Even when William Marks questioned polygamy, Joseph's response was telling. He thought Marks may have been right, momentarily, but reaffirmed his belief that it was from God. At worst this was self-delusion. If I can find one admission from Joseph Smith, as above from the pope, I would consider him a fraud.


But Ray, you know that's impossible, and, unnecessary. You can evaluate his claims - did they, or did they not happen? And if they did not happen, could Joseph Smith have innocently believed that they did happen?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Ray A

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Ray A »

Who Knows wrote:
But Ray, you know that's impossible, and, unnecessary. You can evaluate his claims - did they, or did they not happen? And if they did not happen, could Joseph Smith have innocently believed that they did happen?


Have a look at the case of William Miller (Wiki):

Between 1831 and 1844, William Miller, a Baptist preacher, played a notable role in what historians have called the Second Great Awakening. The Millerite movement , named for William Miller, had significant influence on popular views of biblical prophecy, including upon the movement that later consolidated as the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. Miller preached a set of fourteen rules for the interpretation of the Bible.[1] Based on his study of the prophecy of Daniel 8:14, Miller calculated that Jesus would return to Earth sometime between 21 March 1843 and 21 March 1844.[2] After the latter date came and went, the date was revised and set as October 22, 1844 based on the yearly Day of Atonement in Karaite Judaism.

When Jesus did not appear, Miller's followers experienced what came to be called "the Great Disappointment". Most of the thousands of followers left the movement. A few, however, went back to their Bibles to find out why they had been disappointed. A group of the remaining followers concluded that the prophecy predicted not that Jesus would return in 1844, but that the investigative judgment in heaven would begin in that year.

Miller recorded his personal disappointment in his memoirs: "Were I to live my life over again, with the same evidence that I then had, to be honest with God and man, I should have to do as I have done. I confess my error, and acknowledge my disappointment."[3] Miller continued to wait for the second coming until his death in 1849.


I wouldn't call Miller a fraud, just deluded. Joseph made a similar remark about 1890, which has now been reinterpreted by LDS. But many LDS expected the second coming in 1890. Of course many of Joseph's claims failed. Jackson County never eventuated, and even in the 1870s Orson Pratt was preaching that the Saints will "soon" return because it was a written prophecy. This is not fraud - this is self-delusion.
_Who Knows
_Emeritus
Posts: 2455
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Who Knows »

Ray A wrote:
Who Knows wrote:
But Ray, you know that's impossible, and, unnecessary. You can evaluate his claims - did they, or did they not happen? And if they did not happen, could Joseph Smith have innocently believed that they did happen?


Have a look at the case of William Miller (Wiki):

Between 1831 and 1844, William Miller, a Baptist preacher, played a notable role in what historians have called the Second Great Awakening. The Millerite movement , named for William Miller, had significant influence on popular views of biblical prophecy, including upon the movement that later consolidated as the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. Miller preached a set of fourteen rules for the interpretation of the Bible.[1] Based on his study of the prophecy of Daniel 8:14, Miller calculated that Jesus would return to Earth sometime between 21 March 1843 and 21 March 1844.[2] After the latter date came and went, the date was revised and set as October 22, 1844 based on the yearly Day of Atonement in Karaite Judaism.

When Jesus did not appear, Miller's followers experienced what came to be called "the Great Disappointment". Most of the thousands of followers left the movement. A few, however, went back to their Bibles to find out why they had been disappointed. A group of the remaining followers concluded that the prophecy predicted not that Jesus would return in 1844, but that the investigative judgment in heaven would begin in that year.

Miller recorded his personal disappointment in his memoirs: "Were I to live my life over again, with the same evidence that I then had, to be honest with God and man, I should have to do as I have done. I confess my error, and acknowledge my disappointment."[3] Miller continued to wait for the second coming until his death in 1849.


I wouldn't call Miller a fraud, just deluded. Joseph made a similar remark about 1890, which has now been reinterpreted by LDS. But many LDS expected the second coming in 1890. Of course many of Joseph's claims failed. Jackson County never eventuated, and even in the 1870s Orson Pratt was preaching that the Saints will "soon" return because it was a written prophecy. This is not fraud - this is self-delusion.


I don't know much about Miller. However, he sounds reasonable. From the article, it sounds like he calculated a date using the Bible. He was wrong. So what? Did he claim that god told him the date? If he did, he'd be a fraud in my book. But if he was merely guessing the date based on his study of the Bible - then no biggie. Yeah, he screwed up, but that's not fraud.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Ray A

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Ray A »

Who Knows wrote:I don't know much about Miller. However, he sounds reasonable. From the article, it sounds like he calculated a date using the Bible. He was wrong. So what? Did he claim that god told him the date? If he did, he'd be a fraud in my book. But if he was merely guessing the date based on his study of the Bible - then no biggie. Yeah, he screwed up, but that's not fraud.


Whether you calculate a date from the Bible or believe that God revealed it to you is not relevant. Think of the lady I mentioned earlier, who was certain that the second coming was going to be in 1992. This was not biblical calculation, according to her this was strong, direct revelation. I don't look at people like this and tell them they are frauds, I just tell them they're living in fantasy. The measure of fraud is whether there is a deliberate intent to deceive, knowing that they are deceiving, and for personal gain. As I said before, if you consider Joseph Smith a fraud, I'm fine with that. Not losing any sleep over that.
_Ray A

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Ray A »

Runtu wrote:I've written before about how I knowingly withheld information from investigators, and I believe that does indeed make me a fraud and a liar. I hope I've repented sufficiently of that.


Perhaps you felt it was a case of "milk before meat". But if you want to brand your former self a "fraud and a liar", I'm not going to stop you. You know yourself far better than I do.
_Who Knows
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Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Who Knows »

Ray A wrote:As I said before, if you consider Joseph Smith a fraud, I'm fine with that. Not losing any sleep over that.


I know. I'm just trying to understand how someone can realize that the plates weren't real, and that God and Jesus never really visited Joseph Smith, but yet not consider him a fraud. That's all. I just really don't get it.

If you don't consider him a fraud, would you consider him delusional? (or some other type of severe psychotic disorder)?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Ray A

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Ray A »

Who Knows wrote:Of course I did. I told people that I KNEW the church was true, when I personally knew I didn't know the church was true. I wanted them to think I knew the church was true. I believed in the church, and believed that I was 'lying for the lord' - In other words, I was intentionally being deceitful.


Yeah, I understand. I remember telling an old girlfriend I loved her when I didn't. I was being "intentionally deceitful". By that standard I guess most of the human race are frauds.
_Ray A

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Ray A »

Who Knows wrote:If you don't consider him a fraud, would you consider him delusional? (or some other type of severe psychotic disorder)?


Yes. But sometimes delusional people can also be geniuses. And I think anyone who can produce the Book of Mormon is a genius, regardless of whether or not it has a historical basis.
_Who Knows
_Emeritus
Posts: 2455
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Who Knows »

Ray A wrote:
Who Knows wrote:Of course I did. I told people that I KNEW the church was true, when I personally knew I didn't know the church was true. I wanted them to think I knew the church was true. I believed in the church, and believed that I was 'lying for the lord' - In other words, I was intentionally being deceitful.


Yeah, I understand. I remember telling an old girlfriend I loved her when I didn't. I was being "intentionally deceitful". By that standard I guess most of the human race are frauds.


Yep, and your girlfriend would be justified in being completely pissed with you. And I would agree - now and then we are all frauds to some extent. But how big is the fraud? How many people does it hurt? And how hurt are they? ;)

Anyways, let me try something else. Tell me whether you think the following individuals were frauds:

James Strange
Joseph Smith III
Warren Jeffs
David Koresh
Televangelists (the dudes on tv in the big stadiums who are 'miraculously' healing people - and then asking for donations)
L. Ron Hubbard

That should be enough.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Who Knows
_Emeritus
Posts: 2455
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Who Knows »

Ray A wrote:
Who Knows wrote:If you don't consider him a fraud, would you consider him delusional? (or some other type of severe psychotic disorder)?


Yes. But sometimes delusional people can also be geniuses. And I think anyone who can produce the Book of Mormon is a genius, regardless of whether or not it has a historical basis.


I completely agree.

And, like I said last week, I view Joseph Smith as either a fraud or delusional - one or the other. So I guess we're finally in agreement (to some extent).
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
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