Runtu wrote: Not a bad rejoinder, Ray. I gained a lot from Mormonism (lost quite a bit, too). But I don't think we intentionally misused mythology, did we?
Well I certainly don't think I did. I recounted before how I let my children decide, even when I was active. As far as I know none have regrets about their LDS experience, and some said it even gave them a good moral foundation. But some of the stories I've read about others makes my hair stand on end (if it could, since I shave my head bald! LOL).
Runtu wrote: Not a bad rejoinder, Ray. I gained a lot from Mormonism (lost quite a bit, too). But I don't think we intentionally misused mythology, did we?
Well I certainly don't think I did. I recounted before how I let my children decide, even when I was active. As far as I know none have regrets about their LDS experience, and some said it even gave them a good moral foundation. But some of the stories I've read about others makes my hair stand on end (if it could, since I shave my head bald! LOL).
At this point in my life, it's hard to say I regret having been a Mormon. Yes, there are certain things I regret having done or believed, but Mormonism is so engrained in who I am that it's difficult to say what was a product of me and what came from Mormonism.
Who Knows wrote: I wouldn't say Santa Claus is a fraud. However, someone claiming to have met personally with Santa Claus, and then getting people to follow him, and give him money based on that supposed visit with Santa Claus - I would call that person a fraud.
It would depend on whether the person really knew he was dealing in deceit. Lies don't necessarily constitute fraud, for example lying about polygamy, since the purpose of the lies was to defend what he really believed - that God had called him to practice it, and if necessary lie to save his skin. Parley Pratt used the same justification in his autobiography, and said he felt no guilt because the same was done in the Bible, as in the case of Abraham. Now if they both believed it was all nonsense, and yet still taught it, knowingly deceiving people, that would be fraud.
Runtu wrote: At this point in my life, it's hard to say I regret having been a Mormon. Yes, there are certain things I regret having done or believed, but Mormonism is so engrained in who I am that it's difficult to say what was a product of me and what came from Mormonism.
Of course, just like I don't know what in my beliefs comes from Catholicism. I have an ingrained belief in Jesus Christ through Catholicism, which was pounded into me from the time I could think. Even with all the information I have, and my reason tells me it adds up better than the mythology, I still feel that innate spiritual attraction. But I have to distinguish, something like I might be in love with a woman yet reason tells me it just won't work. It took me about 46 years to learn to listen to reason rather than emotion, in that regard. I'm pretty aware in that regard now, and it's the same with religion. If we go on feelings alone we could be headed for disaster.
Who Knows wrote: I wouldn't say Santa Claus is a fraud. However, someone claiming to have met personally with Santa Claus, and then getting people to follow him, and give him money based on that supposed visit with Santa Claus - I would call that person a fraud.
It would depend on whether the person really knew he was dealing in deceit. Lies don't necessarily constitute fraud, for example lying about polygamy, since the purpose of the lies was to defend what he really believed - that God had called him to practice it, and if necessary lie to save his skin. Parley Pratt used the same justification in his autobiography, and said he felt no guilt because the same was done in the Bible, as in the case of Abraham. Now if they both believed it was all nonsense, and yet still taught it, knowingly deceiving people, that would be fraud.
I just can't buy the whole 'i really believed it, so it's not my fault' line. What about people who commit murders because they believed god told them to do it? I would say they're either lying, or they're extremely deluded/schizophrenic (like i said in the last thread). I just can't fathom a perfectly sane person truly believing they got a visit from the real santa, or god, or god told them to kill someone, or that they possessed gold plates - if those things didn't really happen. I mean, how can a perfectly sane person believe those things without either lying or being severely psychologically screwed up?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Who Knows wrote: I wouldn't say Santa Claus is a fraud. However, someone claiming to have met personally with Santa Claus, and then getting people to follow him, and give him money based on that supposed visit with Santa Claus - I would call that person a fraud.
It would depend on whether the person really knew he was dealing in deceit. Lies don't necessarily constitute fraud, for example lying about polygamy, since the purpose of the lies was to defend what he really believed - that God had called him to practice it, and if necessary lie to save his skin. Parley Pratt used the same justification in his autobiography, and said he felt no guilt because the same was done in the Bible, as in the case of Abraham. Now if they both believed it was all nonsense, and yet still taught it, knowingly deceiving people, that would be fraud.
I just can't buy the whole 'i really believed it, so it's not my fault' line. What about people who commit murders because they believed god told them to do it? I would say they're either lying, or they're extremely deluded/schizophrenic (like i said in the last thread). I just can't fathom a perfectly sane person truly believing they got a visit from the real santa, or god, or god told them to kill someone, or that they possessed gold plates - if those things didn't really happen. I mean, how can a perfectly sane person believe those things without either lying or being severely psychologically screwed up?
I posted once about Mormonism being the George Costanza of religions: "It's not a lie if you believe it." Everytime Ray says this I think of George.
Who Knows wrote: I just can't buy the whole 'i really believed it, so it's not my fault' line. What about people who commit murders because they believed god told them to do it? I would say they're either lying, or they're extremely deluded/schizophrenic (like i said in the last thread). I just can't fathom a perfectly sane person truly believing they got a visit from the real santa, or god, or god told them to kill someone, or that they possessed gold plates - if those things didn't really happen. I mean, how can a perfectly sane person believe those things without either lying or being severely psychologically screwed up?
People believe in all sorts of weird things, and throughout history many of them have killed for their belief. So if you want to call them deluded, you're probably not far off the mark.
Runtu wrote:I posted once about Mormonism being the George Costanza of religions: "It's not a lie if you believe it." Everytime Ray says this I think of George.
So when you were a believing Mormon, were you a fraud?
Who Knows wrote: I just can't buy the whole 'i really believed it, so it's not my fault' line. What about people who commit murders because they believed god told them to do it? I would say they're either lying, or they're extremely deluded/schizophrenic (like i said in the last thread). I just can't fathom a perfectly sane person truly believing they got a visit from the real santa, or god, or god told them to kill someone, or that they possessed gold plates - if those things didn't really happen. I mean, how can a perfectly sane person believe those things without either lying or being severely psychologically screwed up?
People believe in all sorts of weird things, and throughout history many of them have killed for their belief. So if you want to call them deluded, you're probably not far off the mark.
Very true. But I'm not referring to people who believe in something (religion, aliens, etc.). I'm referring specifically to people who believe they've experienced certain events - being abducted by an alien, being visited by God or Jesus, believing they're in possession of something that's not real, etc. Believing in aliens is different than believing you've been abducted by an alien. Believing in God is different than believing you've met face to face with God.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Runtu wrote:I posted once about Mormonism being the George Costanza of religions: "It's not a lie if you believe it." Everytime Ray says this I think of George.
So when you were a believing Mormon, were you a fraud?
My point was that, however unconscious the lie, it's still a lie. Whether or not I believed it has no bearing on the truth of what Joseph Smith taught.