Who Knows wrote:Anyways, let me try something else. Tell me whether you think the following individuals were frauds:
James Strange
Joseph Smith III
Warren Jeffs
David Koresh
Televangelists (the dudes on tv in the big stadiums who are 'miraculously' healing people - and then asking for donations)
L. Ron Hubbard
That should be enough.
I presume the first one is Strang? I think Strang was delusional, and deluded.
Joseph Smith III was also delusional, particularly in his belief that his father never practised polygamy.
Warren Jeffs I don't know much about, because I don't follow FLDS closely, but he comes under sociopath, possibly fraud.
Koresh. Here is one commentary on Koresh:
First, America must take a long, hard look at Vernon Howell, later known to the world as David Koresh, because among cult leaders, he is not atypical. It seems they are all the same. As I travel the country and delve into different destructive cults, I meet the same cult leader over and over again. Only the names are different. They are self-obsessed, egomaniacal, sociopathic, and heartless individuals with no regard whatsoever for their followers. They seek only their personal aggrandizement, financial well-being and physical pleasure. Such leaders exercise total control over their followers. The personalities of those adherents have been dismantled by systematic brainwashing to the point where the leader’s desires become their own. Cult victims and fanatical followers of radical sects are deceived, lied to, manipulated and ultimately exploited. They number in the millions.
It would be extreme to put Joseph Smith in this category. Koresh was accused by former members of rape and child abuse, so he could come under fraud, totally delusional and out for personal gain, a cunning manipulator.
L. Ron Hubbard. In 1984 a justice of the High Court said:
"Scientology is both immoral and socially obnoxious...It is corrupt sinister and dangerous. It is corrupt because it is based on lies and deceit and has its real objective money and power for Mr. Hubbard... It is sinister because it indulges in infamous practices both to its adherents who do not toe the line unquestioningly and to those who criticize it or oppose it. It is dangerous because it is out to capture people and to indoctrinate and brainwash them so they become the unquestioning captives and tools of the cult, withdrawn from ordinary thought, living, and relationships with others." -- Justice Latey, ruling in the High Court of London.
Has that been said about Mormonism today? So I would say Hubbard was a fraud. But Tom Cruise would not agree with me.
Hubbard was also accused of physical abuse and kidnapping, and another Judge said:
"In addition to violating and abusing its own members' civil rights, the organization [Scientology] over the years with its "Fair Game" doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in the Church whom it perceives as enemies. The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and the bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder LRH [L. Ron Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background, and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile. At the same time it appears that he is charismatic and highly capable of motivating, organizing, controlling, manipulating, and inspiring his adherents." -- Superior Court Judge Paul Breckinridge, Church of Scientology of California vs. Gerald Armstrong, June 20 1984.[39]
Joseph Smith certainly lied on occasions, but he was not a "pathological liar". There is little doubt that Dianetics influenced many people, and continues to have followers, but I see few significant comparisons with Joseph Smith, who organised a church with quorums to keep him in check as well. Remember he had to sustain two counselors in the FP that he didn't want, because of the Law of Common Consent. Did Hubbard ever say "I teach them correct principles, they govern themselves"?