Mormons and Patristics

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_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Mak,

You use the word "patristics" as a plural designation for the Fathers themselves. That's not standard usage. Patristics is the discipline that studies the Fathers; the men themselves are just "Fathers."

Among the motivations that might explain this habit, 1 a common one seems to be the desire to discover hidden pockets of the “plain and precious truths” otherwise garnished from the scriptures by the corrupting doctors of theology.


In my experience, this is not an accurate statement of the LDS motivation. Rather, they assume that anywhere the Fathers reflect LDS doctrine, they do so because of a received tradition. The LDS motivation is to point to this alleged tradition as evidence that their own belief system is a genuine restoration of early Christianity.

Because Alexandrian Christianity was thought to have been reared within the context of Hellenized Judaism, 4 this approach was not unreasonable to either of them.


You may want to change the bolded word to present tense?

The approach was eminently reasonable, because Greek philosophy was the science of their day. I have great respect for the Greek philosophers because, while they weren't correct on all counts, they got a lot of things right. The Early Church Fathers didn't just blindly adopt every crazy idea the philosophers had to offer; rather they applied their reason (we do believe that faith should be held in tension with reason, don't we?) and adopted those aspects of it that were compatible with the revelation recorded in the Bible and handed down in the received tradition. We do the same today when we adapt our teachings to the findings of modern science (unless we're evangelical fundamentalists).

One of the few Fathers who was definitely not influenced by Greek philosophy was the first century Clement of Rome, who, in his first epistle to the Corinthians, shares in the Apologist conclusion of creatio ex materia.15 First Clement predates the onset of the Greek influence in Christian theology. His ideas, while not ultimately canon, are definitely an accurate representation of the doctrines widely accepted by the membership of the church immediately following the Apostolic Age.16 The doctrine of eternal matter in First Clement operated within Christianity independent of classical philosophy.


We have no reason to believe that Clement of Rome operated in a vacuum. He certainly wasn't immune to cultural influences; we find him using the Phoenix as evidence of the resurrection. Greek influences aren't absent even in the writings of the Apostle Paul, though they are considerably more subdued there than in later writings. More importantly, the New Testament church was an heir to Jewish exegesis, and Jews had already been mulling the question over in light of the philosophers.

The fact remains, however, that the doctrine was not originally born of Platonic influences, as is often asserted.


It could probably be argued that it was born of pagan influences: think Ugarit or Sumeria.

As has been asserted by the Fathers, our created state is to blame for our eternally impotent nature. While Christ is dual in nature – having an eternal spirit and a mortal body - our spirit and body are only two sides to a single, composite nature, and that finite.23 In this definition we are again separated from God by the eternities. Some are optimistic that a link is found in the various Patristic mentions that we are working to return to a former state, but these statements refer not to our individual natures, but to that of the human family (i.e., Adam’s communion with God).


The distinction isn't always clear, especially among the gnostics. They believed that our souls were derivatives of the cosmic pleroma, and that our goal was to be reunited with it.

Considerations need to be made to find the source for the monotheistic dogma, and the scriptures don’t seem to be the best prospect. Throughout the Bible we are told of the existence of various beings clad in the title of “god.”


The Bible also, however, repeatedly insists that Yahweh is the only God. The easiest way to resolve this contradiction is to posit the existence of many gods but only one God, which is precisely what the Fathers did. There's no reason to look to Greek philosophy for the impetus to monotheism (though it made a nice supplement to what we find in the Bible). We rather find it in the pages of Isaiah, Deuteronomy, and maybe (if you're looking for outside influences) the Yasna.

Good paper.

-CK
_maklelan
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Post by _maklelan »

CaliforniaKid wrote:Mak,

You use the word "patristics" as a plural designation for the Fathers themselves. That's not standard usage. Patristics is the discipline that studies the Fathers; the men themselves are just "Fathers."


Yeah, I was hitting my head against a wall when I saw what I had done, but it'll get edited out before it goes anywhere.

CaliforniaKid wrote:In my experience, this is not an accurate statement of the LDS motivation. Rather, they assume that anywhere the Fathers reflect LDS doctrine, they do so because of a received tradition. The LDS motivation is to point to this alleged tradition as evidence that their own belief system is a genuine restoration of early Christianity.


I believe it is one motivation among many, and I've read a few articles discouraging the habit, the Judd/Robinson article being one of them.

CaliforniaKid wrote:You may want to change the bolded word to present tense?


Thanks. I missed that.

CaliforniaKid wrote:The approach was eminently reasonable, because Greek philosophy was the science of their day. I have great respect for the Greek philosophers because, while they weren't correct on all counts, they got a lot of things right. The Early Church Fathers didn't just blindly adopt every crazy idea the philosophers had to offer; rather they applied their reason (we do believe that faith should be held in tension with reason, don't we?) and adopted those aspects of it that were compatible with the revelation recorded in the Bible and handed down in the received tradition. We do the same today when we adapt our teachings to the findings of modern science (unless we're evangelical fundamentalists).


I agree. I feel their intentions were honorable, but it got the best of them in the end.

CaliforniaKid wrote:We have no reason to believe that Clement of Rome operated in a vacuum. He certainly wasn't immune to cultural influences; we find him using the Phoenix as evidence of the resurrection. Greek influences aren't absent even in the writings of the Apostle Paul, though they are considerably more subdued there than in later writings. More importantly, the New Testament church was an heir to Jewish exegesis, and Jews had already been mulling the question over in light of the philosophers.


I didn't have the space to go into all of that, so I reduced the argument a little. I still find the evidence overwhelmingly in favor of creatio ex materia prior to Hellenization, though. There are many good books and articles on it.

CaliforniaKid wrote:It could probably be argued that it was born of pagan influences: think Ugarit or Sumeria.


I'm actually engaged in a lot of research about that right now, but the space limited the scope of my evaluation, so I kept it to just a few factors.

CaliforniaKid wrote:The distinction isn't always clear, especially among the gnostics. They believed that our souls were derivatives of the cosmic pleroma, and that our goal was to be reunited with it.


I would have loved to have had the room to go into all of that, but I didn't, and my paper is weaker because of it.

CaliforniaKid wrote:The Bible also, however, repeatedly insists that Yahweh is the only God. The easiest way to resolve this contradiction is to posit the existence of many gods but only one God, which is precisely what the Fathers did. There's no reason to look to Greek philosophy for the impetus to monotheism (though it made a nice supplement to what we find in the Bible). We rather find it in the pages of Isaiah, Deuteronomy, and maybe (if you're looking for outside influences) the Yasna.


I think the Bible argues both points in different areas. Polytheism in ancient Israel is a big area of discovery and research these days, as I'm sure you're aware, and I think the Fathers tried to avoid henotheism at all costs, as well. The argument has potential for its own books, but who has the time?

CaliforniaKid wrote:Good paper.

-CK


Hey, thanks. I appreciate it.
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_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

I can't add much to this really. I'm one of the ones that (post-mission) went searching amongst the early christian fathers and other apocryphal works. I didn't do it to confirm the truth of the LDS church though, but to try and find the 'authentic' Jesus. Pretty much without success, I have to say. I came back with the opinion that the New Testament, such that it is, is probably still pretty much the best evidence we have, along with some works that never managed to find their way in.

This paper will show that caution needs to be taken when attempting to identify lost Gospel truths in the fringes of early Christianity.


This is the only bit I really take issue with. I don't know that we can really define what is on the fringe and what isn't.

That's about the best I can do!!
_livy111us
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Post by _livy111us »

Mak,
I've been collecting patristic quotes in relation to the LDS Church for years now covering most subjects. If you want a few, drop me a line and I can send you some.
“Who am I, that Thou sendest me? I am a man of a feeble voice and a slow tongue.” And again he said, “I am but as the smoke of a pot.” (ANF 1:10) 1st epistle of Clement. This quote from Moses is nowhere to be found in modern scripture.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Excellent paper Mak. I enjoyed reading it. I tried responding earlier but my post lagged out when I tried to post it.

I just finished a set of CD's by Nibley where he talked about this very subject, you might want top pick them up

Image

In 1954 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sponsored a Sunday evening radio service that was broadcast from Temple Square in Salt Lake City. A captivating thirty-part lecture series by Hugh Nibley, under the general theme “Time Vindicates the Prophets,” was featured from March 7 through October 17. Although recorded in 1954, the messages delivered in this broadcast are as interesting and relevant today as they were then, and they represent the characteristic Nibley style so many have come to appreciate. This extraordinary collection can be appropriately called “vintage Nibley.” Material in these broadcasts was eventually the basis for Hugh Nibley’s book The World and the Prophets.
8 CDs

Much of the CD focuses on the early church and changes in doctrine and approach to revelation and prophecy.

Also I have this listed in my favorites, you might enjoy it: http://www.Bible.ca/H-trinity.htm
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_maklelan
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Post by _maklelan »

livy111us wrote:Mak,
I've been collecting patristic quotes in relation to the LDS Church for years now covering most subjects. If you want a few, drop me a line and I can send you some.


Hey, that'd be pretty cool.

Just so everyone is aware, my paper has been accepted for presentation at the BYU Student Symposium, so I'll be presenting the above paper (in a revised form) on February 23rd at 9:30 AM. That day I'll find out if it's getting published and if I win any prize money. If anyone's gonna be near Provo you should drop by. Let me know if anyone wants to show up and I'll give you more details.
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_livy111us
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Post by _livy111us »

Mak,
Do you have an address to send it to? You can contact me at livy111us@yahoo.com
“Who am I, that Thou sendest me? I am a man of a feeble voice and a slow tongue.” And again he said, “I am but as the smoke of a pot.” (ANF 1:10) 1st epistle of Clement. This quote from Moses is nowhere to be found in modern scripture.
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

Bond...James Bond wrote:I have a question.

At the beginning of the post you said:

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints seem to have a propensity for digging through the history of the early Christian church.



If this is a key underlying premise of your paper, then you're in trouble. People like you have this propsensity, but in general? I don't see it. You have extraplotated from your narrow circle to an entire population, most of whom are different from you. This is, of course, a common trait of the Mormon apologetic community; an inablity to recognize that they are a unique subset of a larger group; and a tendency to generalize from themselves to the rest of the larger group.

I recognize that we all base our opinions on anecdotal evidence, but we should at least be cognizant that our anecdotes are likely to be biased in some respect.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_maklelan
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Post by _maklelan »

guy sajer wrote:If this is a key underlying premise of your paper, then you're in trouble. People like you have this propsensity, but in general? I don't see it. You have extraplotated from your narrow circle to an entire population, most of whom are different from you. This is, of course, a common trait of the Mormon apologetic community; an inablity to recognize that they are a unique subset of a larger group; and a tendency to generalize from themselves to the rest of the larger group.

I recognize that we all base our opinions on anecdotal evidence, but we should at least be cognizant that our anecdotes are likely to be biased in some respect.


We do it on assumptions as well. I was baptized when I was 20 years old in Dallas, Texas, and the people in my ward as well as the people in my institute class from several different stakes loved hearing about and discussing how related the early Christian doctrines were to our own. then I went on a mission to South America and was exposed to hundreds of missionaries who felt the same way, as well as hundreds of members who did too. then I came back home and shipped off to BYU, where it's even more common.

I have changed the beginning of my paper, because it's definitely not all, but I have seen it in a majority of members of the church. I, however, take issue with your assertion that your narrow circle somehow trumps my narrow circle. I understand that that kind of condescension is critical to the remainder of that paragraph. You couldn't glare down your snout at my apologetic tendencies if you didn't first make clear that you are utterly unencumbered by the fetters of assumption and imperfection, but you've never studied these frequencies before, you're just recalling what you've been cognizant of in Mormonism as an observer who has never thought about this issue and trying to gather and interpret that data. Of course that data is going to be horribly inaccurate, and of course you're going to draw upon assumptions and anecdotal evidence to try to substantiate your a priori guess as to what Mormons actually care about in scholarship, but I have studied this and am able to tell you with confidence that you're wrong.
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_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Couldn't we just say to the Early Church Fathers, "Your doctrines are belong to us"?
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