Why would a loving Heavenly Father banish us away from Him for eternity where we will never grow or change? I think God is a little more creative than that! The atonement gives everyone the chance to return to God. We must forgive anyone that has harmed or offended us or we can't be forgiven of our sins.
When I expressed my belief on progression between kingdoms with Chapel Mormons, they respectfully disagreed. Some people thrive on the belief that they will get something better than another for following the LDS church.
Progressing between kingdoms? A possibility?
In reply to seven, I would just like to say that I understand your point very well. However, in most christian sects, one either goes to hell or to heaven. There is no progression between heaven and hell. And so, yes, most christian sects see separations sponsored by a loving god. However, I do believe that there may or may not be progressions and more will be given to us with time. But as far as visitations between kingdoms, the between the celestial and the other kingdoms, I do believe that there will be. But I would suppose that the celestial is for celestial people and no one from the other two would be allowed in. Hence, the temple is off limits to terrestials or telestials on this earth.
What loving god would create a hell? I think that we misunderstand the idea of a loving god. Or we rationalize such love because of a belief that god would always want us near.
What loving god would create a hell? I think that we misunderstand the idea of a loving god. Or we rationalize such love because of a belief that god would always want us near.
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_Polygamy Porter
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 2204
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:04 am
???? Stop cherry picking.why me wrote:In reply to seven, I would just like to say that I understand your point very well. However, in most christian sects, one either goes to hell or to heaven. There is no progression between heaven and hell. And so, yes, most christian sects see separations sponsored by a loving god. However, I do believe that there may or may not be progressions and more will be given to us with time. But as far as visitations between kingdoms, the between the celestial and the other kingdoms, I do believe that there will be. But I would suppose that the celestial is for celestial people and no one from the other two would be allowed in. Hence, the temple is off limits to terrestials or telestials on this earth.
What loving god would create a hell? I think that we misunderstand the idea of a loving god. Or we rationalize such love because of a belief that god would always want us near.
What loving "father in heaven" would banish 1/3 of his own children because they followed one of his "bad" older sons?
What loving "father in heaven" would drown nearly ALL of his children like unwanted puppies because they would not keep their rooms clean?
What loving "father in heaven" would turn his back for nearly 2000 years, away from his own children he had sent to his testing center(a.k.a. earth)?
Polygamy Porter wrote:???? Stop cherry picking.why me wrote:In reply to seven, I would just like to say that I understand your point very well. However, in most christian sects, one either goes to hell or to heaven. There is no progression between heaven and hell. And so, yes, most christian sects see separations sponsored by a loving god. However, I do believe that there may or may not be progressions and more will be given to us with time. But as far as visitations between kingdoms, the between the celestial and the other kingdoms, I do believe that there will be. But I would suppose that the celestial is for celestial people and no one from the other two would be allowed in. Hence, the temple is off limits to terrestials or telestials on this earth.
What loving god would create a hell? I think that we misunderstand the idea of a loving god. Or we rationalize such love because of a belief that god would always want us near.
What loving "father in heaven" would banish 1/3 of his own children because they followed one of his "bad" older sons?
What loving "father in heaven" would drown nearly ALL of his children like unwanted puppies because they would not keep their rooms clean?
What loving "father in heaven" would turn his back for nearly 2000 years, away from his own children he had sent to his testing center(a.k.a. earth)?
First, I would not say that god has turned his back on his children on earth. He, through the holy ghost, often bears witness to the truth and gives comfort to those that seek him. Plus, there have been various miracles that have been performed in his name.
In terms of banishing his children, well, I can only say that any rebellious son or daughter that attempts to harm the other children, a father would do the same to protect his other children. And we have no idea just what this war in heaven was all about, in terms of details. But we do know some things but certainly not everything.
As far as killing puppies, I have no idea what you are talking about and so, I cannot comment. And I usually like to pick apples. Cherries can make my hand and fingers red.
I've always liked this verse... when speaking of progressing...
2 Cor. 3: 7, 9-10, 18
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
• • •
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
• • •
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Cor. 3: 7, 9-10, 18
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
• • •
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
• • •
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
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_Polygamy Porter
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 2204
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:04 am
Why me, please understand that you must posses the ablity to read AND comprehend a post prior to spouting off your self induced emotional opinions.why me wrote:Polygamy Porter wrote:???? Stop cherry picking.why me wrote:In reply to seven, I would just like to say that I understand your point very well. However, in most christian sects, one either goes to hell or to heaven. There is no progression between heaven and hell. And so, yes, most christian sects see separations sponsored by a loving god. However, I do believe that there may or may not be progressions and more will be given to us with time. But as far as visitations between kingdoms, the between the celestial and the other kingdoms, I do believe that there will be. But I would suppose that the celestial is for celestial people and no one from the other two would be allowed in. Hence, the temple is off limits to terrestials or telestials on this earth.
What loving god would create a hell? I think that we misunderstand the idea of a loving god. Or we rationalize such love because of a belief that god would always want us near.
What loving "father in heaven" would banish 1/3 of his own children because they followed one of his "bad" older sons?
What loving "father in heaven" would drown nearly ALL of his children like unwanted puppies because they would not keep their rooms clean?
What loving "father in heaven" would turn his back for nearly 2000 years, away from his own children he had sent to his testing center(a.k.a. earth)?
First, I would not say that god has turned his back on his children on earth. He, through the holy ghost, often bears witness to the truth and gives comfort to those that seek him. Plus, there have been various miracles that have been performed in his name.
In other words READ MY POST.. again, K?
I did not say that god had turned his back on his children on earth. Mormonsism claims that god basically ignored the earth from the time shortly after Jesus until Smith was born. Many Mormons believe the dark ages to be evidence that god was on an extended vacation...Why would a supposed "loving god" turn his back on his children?
READ MY POST.In terms of banishing his children, well, I can only say that any rebellious son or daughter that attempts to harm the other children, a father would do the same to protect his other children. And we have no idea just what this war in heaven was all about, in terms of details. But we do know some things but certainly not everything.
According to Mormonism, Satan was one of god's older sons, who got 1/3 of his other spirit siblings to follow him. So why would you punish the younger kids for following the bad example of the older son? I guess you would if you were a loving god... *sigh*
I am talking about the supposed flood. My heck...As far as killing puppies, I have no idea what you are talking about and so, I cannot comment. And I usually like to pick apples. Cherries can make my hand and fingers red.
What loving "father in heaven" would banish 1/3 of his own children because they followed one of his "bad" older sons?
What loving "father in heaven" would drown nearly ALL of his children like unwanted puppies because they would not keep their rooms clean?
What loving "father in heaven" would turn his back for nearly 2000 years, away from his own children he had sent to his testing center(a.k.a. earth)?
Polygamy Porter. I am teaching 10 year olds RE at school at the moment. Aside from the specific nuances in terms of LDS doctrine, they are all asking the same sorts of questions. (We are looking at Christianity in the context of English culture)
It's not my place to give them authoritative answers, but we do look at a variety of beliefs around the subject. Personally I find myself so far from much of LDS culture around the nature of God, (and around christianity in general) that I just don't know how I could find a place within it, except to do my bit at a local community level where there is no need for me to affirm a belief in anything specific. (hope that makes sense)
I find the kids to be incredibly astute (in terms of not being swayed by any particular doctrine) in these matters, and some of their insights and thoughts are breath-taking.
Next up is the christian concept of God. Any suggestions!!
My own answer to your points is that, of course, I don't believe God works like that.
Eternal progression
From the Seven Deadly heresies
Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say,
"God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?"
It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
Of those in the telestial world it is written:
"And they shall be servants of the Most High, but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).
Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it the revelation says:.
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all etemity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16-17]
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.
In regards to the continueing question as to why God has chosen to personally slay his children, and as to why Satan and 1/3 were cast out:
Satan and those who followed him chose of their own account to rebel against the plan of salvation. The Father stated " this is how exaltation is obtained" and Satan and the third cried foul. They did not agree, and therefore did not participate. And since they did not adhere to the culture, they were given a place of their own, away from the Fatehr and those who think as he does.
The Children who were slain in the flood were those who rebelled against the plan of God and created an enviorment that the gospel could not flourish in in any way. They had had Adam, Seth Enoch and Noah to teach them, as well as the entire population of the City of Enoch who were all perfectly obedient. They had rejected all of these prophets, so therefore a new soil was required.
Gaz
Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say,
"God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?"
It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
Of those in the telestial world it is written:
"And they shall be servants of the Most High, but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).
Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it the revelation says:.
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all etemity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16-17]
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.
In regards to the continueing question as to why God has chosen to personally slay his children, and as to why Satan and 1/3 were cast out:
Satan and those who followed him chose of their own account to rebel against the plan of salvation. The Father stated " this is how exaltation is obtained" and Satan and the third cried foul. They did not agree, and therefore did not participate. And since they did not adhere to the culture, they were given a place of their own, away from the Fatehr and those who think as he does.
The Children who were slain in the flood were those who rebelled against the plan of God and created an enviorment that the gospel could not flourish in in any way. They had had Adam, Seth Enoch and Noah to teach them, as well as the entire population of the City of Enoch who were all perfectly obedient. They had rejected all of these prophets, so therefore a new soil was required.
Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
Re: Progressing between kingdoms? A possibility?
liz3564 wrote:I originally posted this in the Terestrial forum, but I really want to post it here as well, to gain a perspective from those who may not be comfortable posting in the other level.
I appreciate your thoughts, guys! Thanks!:)
One thing I have always had a problem with in Mormonism is the idea that after you are judged by God, you are relegated to a kingdom, be it Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial, and that's it!
This earth life is our time to be "tried and tested", and there is no chance for further progression in the next life.
If you haven't minded all of your p's and q's....dotted all the I's...crossed all the t's....even if you were a faithful LDS servant, more than likely, you're going to the Terrestrial Kingdom because you aren't good enough to be a God in the Celestial Kingdom.
So....my kids get "judged", and they haven't made all of the mistakes I have...they go to the Celestial Kingdom and I'm "cut off" from them. Being sealed to them means nothing because I'm stuck in a lower kingdom. Oh, sure, it's nice and all, but I don't have the freedom to visit my kids. I have to wait for them to see me, when they're not too busy.
That sure sounds like hell to me.
I just don't see how a God who believes in eternal progression, constant learning, and compassion, can't allow for the fact that we might learn things beyond this existance and still be worthy for a greater glory.
Thoughts?
After years and years of study and much prayer I have come to the conclusion that this earth, in the condition it is in now, is the Telestial Kingdom of Heaven. When the Lord returns to reign on earth for the 1000 year period before He leaves the earth again, the earth will change from Telestial to Terrestrial Kindgom of heaven. When the Great City comes down out of Heaven from God, it will change the earth from Terrestrial to the Celestial Kingdom of Heaaven as it is perfectly described in the D & C 88: 17-25.
There is much to learn about the great city that, I'm sure, will cause quite a few LDS to change their previous views on the plan of Eternal Progression.
Since the D & C informs all of us that no punishment given by God lasts forever, there will be a time when ALL PEOPLE WILL BECOME PERFECT. It is called Eternal Punishment because one of the names of God is Eternal. So if you received Eternal Punishment it is simply God's punishment, which is named after Him.
Ephesians 4: 11 And he gave to some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the Saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edify of the body of Christ;
13. Till we ALL COME in the unity of the faith and a knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST.
The way I have always interpreted the plan of God is to place myself in the position of God and create my own plan for the salvation and Eternal Life of man. You do the same thing realizing, as I, that all men, in the beginning came from the spirit entity called Intelligence. So call upon the wises people you know of to assist you. Then call upon the most soft hearted and loving individuals to assist you. Take all the time you need since time is really not a factor. Then let's say after about 100 years you all have come up with a plan that is the most perfect of all plans. Then is the time to realize that God would still have a better one. Not one person can out think God. Not one person has more love for us than God. So if you have been taught that God is anything less, you had better keep searching.
grampa75[/quote]
Paul W. Burt