Do you believe God intervenes & answers prayers?

[_Sam Harris]

This question has been weighing on my mind after reading a horrific story of the torture and murder of a 2 year old boy Jamie Bulger. You can read the story here if you can stomach it: http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/bulger.asp


We see so many disturbing stories in the news everyday of innocent little children or good men and women who are kidnapped and tortured. Some are murdered and some are tortured slaves. After watching the movies "Hotel Ruwanda" and "Blood Diamond" I began to feel very insignificant to God. Why doesn't He care about these people? There is a documentary I want to see called "God grew tired of us" (appropriatly titled), about the African boys who escaped after watching their families murdered by Muslims for their belief in Christ.

Why do I think God would care about what I need if He allows all of these atrocities to happen?
My needs seem pretty shallow in comparison to the people and children crying out to God for help while He ignores their pleas. The innocent Jamie Bulger who was crying for his Mom while she is praying to God for help in finding her son, but He allowed these 10 year old boys to commit the most heinous crime on her little boy.

Why do we even bother asking God to help us? Why should we believe our prayers our so special that He would help us in whatever needs we have?

I know the TBM response would be that God can't interfere with our free agency.
If that is true, there would be no miracles in the scriptures and no stories of God saving anybody. If we believe the scriptures are true, then God does intervene with our agnecy. He picks and chooses who He will intervene with. When I hear stories from LDS who believe God intervened with Priesthood blessings, or saved them in a car accident, I want to ask them: "what makes you think you are so special that God saved you, yet He allows all of these innocent children or families to be victims of the most horrific crimes imaginable?"

I believe in God and Jesus Christ, but I don't understand why we should pray for their blessings or help anymore. I have an easier time believing God never intervenes, and allows nature to take its course. What are your beliefs?

If your prayers have been answered, why do you believe they were?

Hey Seven,

These are by far the most painful and as far as I can see, still unanswered questions in spirituality. And personally I think that quick and rote answers are insulting. I don't know why there is so much suffering. I think that perhaps the collective human consciousness has just created this big ball of misery so large we don't know how to easily dissipate it, but there's so much more to that.

When I had these questions, there was a book I checked out from the library. It's called When Bad Things Happen To Good People, by Rabbi Harold Kushner. The book has some very radical claims in it, and the one that stuck out with me the most was that God weeps with us. But that still leaves the question as to why he doesn't intervene in the greatest of atrocities.

Someone once said that it is tragedy that brings communitites together. Are we as humans so hard-hearted that it takes death and destruction to get us to see our own frailties? These things I wonder sometimes.

But through it all, I do not doubt that God loves us. Even those whose lives are and have been lost. But I personally believe that the spirit is eternal, and that suffering ceases when our journey here does. That is little consolation, but that's all I personally have to hang onto.

You've brought a deep question to the table, Seven, thank you for doing so.

GIMR

[_Seven]

Why do I think God would care about what I need if He allows all of these atrocities to happen?
My needs seem pretty shallow in comparison to the people and children crying out to God for help while He ignores their pleas. The innocent Jamie Bulger who was crying for his Mom while she is praying to God for help in finding her son, but He allowed these 10 year old boys to commit the most heinous crime on her little boy

.

Seven, are you from the UK?
My colleague worked with one of the (very)) young killers of Jamie Bulger. Just out of interest, she described him as 'cold, emotionally'. Did any good come out of this horrible event? The children were avid watchers of horror movies like Chucky, and I think it brought home hard just how much these kind of films can influence young minds, particularly if they have a psychopathic personality.



I don't have any easy answers for what you are saying in regard to the way God works. I really don't. Life is brutal, violent and short, but it is also beautiful, interesting and joyful. Despite how life is, we all seem to be able to create an internal reality in which we can live with and survive it.

I'd like to think that if God does exist that he was with Jamie Bulger, and any other human being that is subject to pain and suffering. I know my father, who suffered a long cancer illness (and wasn't particularly religious) became serene and at peace as he came to terms with his own iminent and quite painful demise. Whether there is a God without or not, I think we all have a God within that helps us to cope with whatever life throws at us.

Just a few incoherant musings!!
Mary

I am from the U.S. :) Thank you for sharing what you know about the Jamie Bulger crime. I remember watching a 20/20 or some show like that back when it happened, and they showed the 2 boys. (in court I think) I remember the wicked countenance in their faces. It was pure evil. I couldn't believe I could even see that in 10 year old boys but it was there. I think about how young and innocent I was at 10 & how I was capable of making mistakes and sinning, but I was too young to even understand the gravity of it. I can't imagine these crimes were God proving their wickedness when they were too young to even fully grasp what they did but evil was in their faces at that time.

I too feel there is a peace and connection with God that people feel when enduring horrible trials I have yet to face. Some say they wouldn't change those challenges because it helped them grow closer to the Spirit. This is one of those questions there is no good answer for, but it does help to read the testimonies of those who have faith strengthened despite God allowing the tragedy.

Lisa Beamer (wife of Tood Beamer from United 93) wrote a book primarily on this topic called "Lets Roll." She amazed me with her faith and testimony.

[_Seven]

Hey Seven,

These are by far the most painful and as far as I can see, still unanswered questions in spirituality. And personally I think that quick and rote answers are insulting. I don't know why there is so much suffering. I think that perhaps the collective human consciousness has just created this big ball of misery so large we don't know how to easily dissipate it, but there's so much more to that.

When I had these questions, there was a book I checked out from the library. It's called When Bad Things Happen To Good People, by Rabbi Harold Kushner. The book has some very radical claims in it, and the one that stuck out with me the most was that God weeps with us. But that still leaves the question as to why he doesn't intervene in the greatest of atrocities.

Someone once said that it is tragedy that brings communitites together. Are we as humans so hard-hearted that it takes death and destruction to get us to see our own frailties? These things I wonder sometimes.

But through it all, I do not doubt that God loves us. Even those whose lives are and have been lost. But I personally believe that the spirit is eternal, and that suffering ceases when our journey here does. That is little consolation, but that's all I personally have to hang onto.

You've brought a deep question to the table, Seven, thank you for doing so.

GIMR

Hi GIMR, :)

I have come to this belief now from discussing this here and the terrestrial forum, that God is using us as instruments for Him and may give us promptings to serve each other in our time of need but otherwise does not intervene. This belief I can find some peace with. Instead of asking God for "blessings" I can ask for the strength and inspiration to help another who is in need. I think the test is to see if we turn away from those who are in need, starving, abused etc. God has the power to change it but He wants to allow us the chance for growth and learning by serving each other.

One thing that greatly disturbed me in the Jamie Bulger case was the statement that witnesses saw these boys beating the toddler. I couldn't understand how there were witnesses to that! Why didn't they stop them? Oh, that made me sick to my stomach. I hope the article had made a mistake in how they worded it, because I can't imagine turning away from that. Some people out of fear, slothfullness, or other selfish reasons will not help another. It may be the reason God stays out of it. We will have to account for our lack of service to those who we claim to care about but feel like "we can't do anything about it."

Thank you for the response! I will check out that book. It sounds like what I need.

[_Mary]

One thing that greatly disturbed me in the Jamie Bulger case was the statement that witnesses saw these boys beating the toddler. I couldn't understand how there were witnesses to that! Why didn't they stop them? Oh, that made me sick to my stomach. I hope the article had made a mistake in how they worded it, because I can't imagine turning away from that. Some people out of fear, slothfullness, or other selfish reasons will not help another. It may be the reason God stays out of it. We will have to account for our lack of service to those who we claim to care about but feel like "we can't do anything about it."

I think the witnesses did (obviously) not understand the gravity of the situation. They just thought they were elder brothers who were taking the child home after he had fallen and hurt himself. Both the perpetrators came from pretty disfunctional backgrounds. Doesn't excuse their behaviour, but perhaps goes some way to understanding how they could engage in such a barbaric crime at such a young age without really understanding the gravity of it. However, they put Jamie on the railway line, so a train would run over him, which indicates that they were aware of how serious it would be for them, if they were blamed. An imature attempt at diverting guilt.

Have you checked out both the boys psychological profiles? Jon was the less bright, Robert quicker intellectually, from a family of 5 boys, where sexual abuse 'probably' occured amongst them on a regular basis. Interestingly, Robert was more ashamed of this aspect of the crime, than he was of the beating. Both backgrounds contained strong elements of physical violence.

Mary Bell is another infamous child killer (who was herself a young child when she began her killing spree). She too came from an extremely disfunctional background. But yet a lot of children DO come from disfunctional backgrounds to various degrees and don't become killers. I have no answer for it.

[_fubecabr]

How come you posted this in the Terrestial and Celestial forums?

[_Seven]

How come you posted this in the Terrestial and Celestial forums?

I have heard there are posters that don't go in the Terrestrial forum and I wanted their opinions.

[_JoeNormal]

Hello everyone, this is my first post on this forum so perhaps I should introduce myself. I am an engineer, agnostic and father of twins. I have immigrated to this forum from the now defunct Tribune Religion forum.

This was perhaps the most disturbing thing I have ever read. I consider myself almost immune to strong emotion given the constant turmoil of daily life and my predisposition towards objective reason but as I read this, tears welled up in my eyes.

Long ago, I realized that if god exists, his/hers/its actions and motivations would have to be seen from a perspective far greater than our human perspective. However, I can see nothing positive from this event from any perspective I can imagine. I'm afraid this has become one more nail in the coffin of my faith. If there is a grand scheme, I have to wonder if we are anything more than cogs in its machinations.

[_Julie]

Hello everyone, this is my first post on this forum so perhaps I should introduce myself. I am an engineer, agnostic and father of twins. I have immigrated to this forum from the now defunct Tribune Religion forum.

This was perhaps the most disturbing thing I have ever read. I consider myself almost immune to strong emotion given the constant turmoil of daily life and my predisposition towards objective reason but as I read this, tears welled up in my eyes.

Long ago, I realized that if god exists, his/hers/its actions and motivations would have to be seen from a perspective far greater than our human perspective. However, I can see nothing positive from this event from any perspective I can imagine. I'm afraid this has become one more nail in the coffin of my faith. If there is a grand scheme, I have to wonder if we are anything more than cogs in its machinations.

Glad to see you here Joe. I may have overlooked this thread, but I saw you had posted, very upsetting indeed and nobody has answers for things like this I cried too. :( I have been posting some on the next level of the board (terrestrial) I think it is. You will find some familiar names there. At least here they have a nice variety so people can find their comfort zones.

[_JoeNormal]

Hi Julie, glad to see you here too. Which forum do you spend most of your time in?

[_Julie]

Hi Julie, glad to see you here too. Which forum do you spend most of your time in?

The terrestrial forum. I guess here if you post something they don't think belongs in a section, they will move it to where it should be rather than ban you. The terrestrial is like a PG 13 rating. :) I like it so far.