Was Joseph a Paedophile?

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_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

Liz,

wivesofjosephsmith.org

suggests this for Fanny Alger

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm

At the time, Fanny was living in the Smith home, perhaps helping Emma with house work and the children. Ann Eliza Webb recalls, “Mrs. Smith had an adopted daughter, a very pretty, pleasing young girl, about seventeen years old. She was extremely fond of her; no mother could be more devoted, and their affection for each other was a constant object of remark, so absorbing and genuine did it seem”.


and this:

Chauncey Webb recounts Emma’s later discovery of the relationship: “Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house”. Ann Eliza again recalls: “...it was felt that [Emma] certainly must have had some very good reason for her action. By degrees it became whispered about that Joseph’s love for his adopted daughter was by no means a paternal affection, and his wife, discovering the fact, at once took measures to place the girl beyond his reach...Since Emma refused decidedly to allow her to remain in her house...my mother offered to take her until she could be sent to her relatives...”


and this:

Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage. He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...” To calm rumors regarding Fanny’s relationship with Joseph, the church quickly adopted a “Chapter of Rules for Marriage among the Saints”, which declared, “Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with...polygamy; we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife...” This “Article on Marriage” was canonized and published in the Doctrine & Covenants. In 1852, the doctrine of polygamy was publicly announced, thus ending eighteen years of secret practice. “The Article on Marriage” became obsolete and was later removed.



From this site : http://www.ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/Mormon ... wives.html
Mosiah Hancock's biography seems to be evidence of a marriage between Fanny and Joseph...

“Therefore Brother Joseph said ‘Brother Levi I want to make a bargain with you – If you will get Fanny Alger for me for a wife you may have Clarissa Reed. I love Fanny.’ ‘I will’ Said Father. ‘Go brother Levi and the Lord will prosper you’ Said Joseph – Father goes to the Father Samuel Alger – Father’s Brother in Law and [said] ‘Samuel the Prophet Joseph loves your Daughter Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you’ – Uncle Sam Says – ‘Go and talk to the Old woman about it twill be as She says’ Father goes to his Sister and said ‘Clarrissy, Brother Joseph the Prophet of the most high God loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you’ Said She ‘go and talk to Fanny it will be all right with me’ – Father goes to Fanny and said ‘Fanny Brother Joseph the Prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife will you be his wife?’ ‘I will Levi’ Said She – Father takes Fanny to Joseph and said ‘Brother Joseph I have been successful in my mission’ – Father gave her to Joseph repeating the Ceremony as Joseph repeated to him.”

- Mosiah Hancock Autobiography, pp. 62-63
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

Miss Taken wrote:Thanks Sono,
I did some digging.


From:
Tanner, J.M. Foetus Into Man: Physical Growth from Conception to Maturity. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1978.

Tanner, J.M. Growth at adolescence, with a general consideration of the effects of hereditary and environmental factors upon growth and maturation from birth to maturity. Oxford: Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1962.


Image

Image

According to Tanner, the average age of menarche dropped from about 17 to 12.8 during the period 1830-1962. The rate of decline was 4 months per decade.


Problems with the Documentation of the Secular Trend

Tanner's data is suspect because he used a small study group in establishing the original age of 17, and then used them to compare with groups elsewhere.

Tanner's establishment of the age range for normal development was based on a group of 192 lower-class girls in a children's home, who may have had low-quality care prior to the study.


For the following, I couldn't find evidence to back up the claims...(my bold for period of interest)

Historical Data on Age at Menarche

Early data

Ancient Rome 12-14

Medieval Europe 12-14

Medieval Middle East 12-13

Nineteenth Century

Manchester 1840s

working class women 15.7

upper class women 14.6

London 1855 (hospital patients) 15.5

Germany 1869 15.7

Scotland 1870 15.6-16.6

London 1880 (middle class) 15

U.S.A. late 19th century 12-14

Early 20th Century

USA 1905 14-15.7



From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1310280.stm

A report published in the British Medical Journal shows the average age of menarche (age at first period) in British teenagers is 12 years and 11 months.


Previous surveys in the 1950s and 1960s found the average age was around 13-and-a-half.


http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/322/7294/1095/DC1

From Wiki: (seemed quite reasonable)

There were few systematic studies of timing of menarche before the latter half of the 20th century. Most older estimates of average timing of menarche were based on observation of a small homogeneous population not necessarily representative of the larger population, or based on recall by adult women, which is also susceptible to various forms of error. Most sources agree that average age of menarche in girls in modern societies has declined, though the reasons and the degree remain subjects of controversy.



Here's a Danish Study of women in the 19th Century (the period we are interested in)

This study was of a cluster of 3385 women in the 1840's in Denmark. I don't have full access to the article so I don't know what class they came from
(important for nutrition/health and how it effects menarche)

Here's the abstract

Medical observations on 3385 Danish women, from the 1840s, indicate that at that time the average age at menarche was 16 years and 3 months for Denmark as a whole. Since then, age at menarche has decreased, with an average rate of a little over 2½ months per decade.


From: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/t ... 1/art00008

On the definition of a paedophile


From Wiki:

The term paedophilia erotica was coined in 1886 by the Vienna psychiatrist Richard von Krafft-Ebing in his writing Psychopathia Sexualis.[4] He gave the following characteristics:

the sexual interest is toward children, either prepubescent or at the beginning of puberty


The article also suggests an age differential of 5 years or more.

Obviously, using these definitions Joseph, nowadays would be regarded as a paedophile? (Particularly if the marriages included a sexual element)
Would he have been regarded as such in the first half of the 19th century?



I think the issue of menarche is a red herring. One can be sexually active before one is fertile. The real issue is what the law believed was the age of consent in Illinois in the 1840s, which was for females 10 and males 14.

Would a true paedophile be sexually attracted to women in their late teens and older? As far as we know Helen Mar Kimball was the only 14 year old Joseph Smith married, and certainly an exception to the rule.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

Following is from http://www.press.uillinois.edu/epub/books/stowell/ch7.html#foot1


The early criminal codes of Illinois were adopted from the common law of England when Illinois became a state in 1818. 10 The laws passed by the first general assembly defined rape and statutory rape and prescribed the penalty: "That any person or persons who shall have carnal knowledge of a woman forcibly and against her will, or who shall aid or abet, counsel, hire, or cause or procure any person or persons to commit the said offence, being of the age of fourteen years, shall unlawfully know and abuse any woman child under the age of ten years with or without her consent, shall, on conviction suffer death." 11 In 1830 the General Assembly amended the penalty for a rape conviction, setting it to a prison term from one year to life. 12

---------------------------------

10. Leslie A. Cranston, Early Criminal Codes of Illinois and Their Relations to the Common Law of England (DuQuoin, Ill.: Cranston, n.d.), 5, 15.
11. "An Act Respecting Crimes and Punishments: Rape," 23 March 1819, Laws of the State of Illinois (1819), 219.
12. "An Act to amend an Act entitled, 'An Act Relative to Criminal Jurisprudence,' approved 6 January 1827, and to Provide for the Regulation and Government of the Penitentiary," 15 February 1821, Laws of the State of Illinois (1830), 110.



CURRENT MARRIAGEABLE AGE LAWS IN THE U.S.

United States: Usually 18. Most states, however, allow marriage at a younger age with parental and/or judicial consent. Some states allow marriage at a still younger age if the female is pregnant.
Alabama: 18, 16 with parental consent (statute).
Arizona: no statutory minimum, those under 18 must have parental consent, those under 16 must receive approval of a superior court judge and parental consent. (statute)
California: no statutory minimum, those under 18 must receive approval of a superior court judge and parental consent.
Georgia: 18 generally, 15 with parental consent, 16 without parental consent if pregnant
Florida: 18 generally, 16 with parental consent.
Massachusetts: 18 generally for first marriage, 16 with parental and judicial consent [2].
Michigan: 18 generally, 16 with parental consent. 15 and under with parental consent and probate judge approval.
Mississippi: 17 for males, 15 for females, unlimited with parental consent.
New Hampshire: 18 generally; 14 for males and 13 for females, in cases of "special cause" with parental consent and court permission.
New York: 18 generally, 16 with parental consent, 14 with parental and judicial consent.
North Carolina: 18 generally, 16 with parental consent, unlimited in case of pregnancy or birth of child with parental consent.
Oregon: 18 generally, 17 with parental consent. The consenting parent or guardian must accompany the applicant when applying for the marriage license. There is no waiver for anyone under the age of 17.
Texas: 18, 14 with parental consent. Possibly younger with judicial consent or if person under 18 had previously married and divorced. Texas Family Code
Utah: 18 generally for first marriage, 16 with parental consent, 14 with court approval or previous marriage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age


Statutory rape is the crime of sex with a minor under the age of consent (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez). Statutory rape differs from other types of rape in that overt force or threat need not be present. By law (statute), any such sexual activity is assumed to be coercive since the minor is considered in law as unable to give consent to the acts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape




The age of consent varies widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.[1] The median seems to range from 14 to 16 years, but laws stating ages as young as 12 and as old as 21 do exist. ...

Social (and the resulting legal) attitudes toward the appropriate age of consent have drifted upwards in modern times; while ages from 10 through to 13 were typically acceptable in the mid-Nineteenth Century[1] (Pg7), 15 through to 18 had become the norm in many countries by the end of the Twentieth Century. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_twinkie
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Post by _twinkie »

Ok, by today's standards, HE IS A PEDOPHILE! If he tried to get away with that in 2007, he would be locked up in a cage and made into man meat.
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

twinkie wrote:Ok, by today's standards, HE IS A PEDOPHILE! If he tried to get away with that in 2007, he would be locked up in a cage and made into man meat.


twinkie,

He needs to be judged based on the statutes and definitions that existed at the time. By today's standards he might be considered a pedophile or one who commited statutory rape. He might be imprisioned in a minimum security facility or out on work release.

Having said that....wasn't he effectively locked up in a cage and made into man meat?

Jersey Girl
_twinkie
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Post by _twinkie »

Jersey girl, yes you're right, he was locked up in a cage. The "man meat" thing... uh... I meant a little differently. Please excuse my sense of humor. By today's standards, at the very least he'd earn himself a lifetime membership to the Sexual Offender's club. Does the parent's consent make it right? If a grown man wanted to marry your 14 year old daughter, would you consent? I would have to say Heck no. Perhaps no one raised an eyebrow to that type of thing in the 1800's, though.

I am going to have to read more about Smith's many marriages.
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

twinkie wrote:Ok, by today's standards, HE IS A PEDOPHILE! If he tried to get away with that in 2007, he would be locked up in a cage and made into man meat.


But here is the rub with historical speculations--would Joseph Smith have tried to marry a 14 year old girl if he were alive today? If he were a product of his times, would he not also be a product of ours? That's why such speculation and moralizing is meaningless.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

twinkie wrote:Jersey girl, yes you're right, he was locked up in a cage. The "man meat" thing... uh... I meant a little differently. Please excuse my sense of humor. By today's standards, at the very least he'd earn himself a lifetime membership to the Sexual Offender's club. Does the parent's consent make it right? If a grown man wanted to marry your 14 year old daughter, would you consent? I would have to say Heck no. Perhaps no one raised an eyebrow to that type of thing in the 1800's, though.

I am going to have to read more about Smith's many marriages.


Sexual Offender's Club? Only if he were caught, tried, convicted and sentenced. Would Joseph have ever been officially tried, convicted and sentenced? Thanks to a mob, we'll never know that. According to what Dan has posted, he might have been convicted of bigamy or adultery, but nothing more.

Jersey Girl
_marg

Post by _marg »

Jersey Girl wrote: Sexual Offender's Club? Only if he were caught, tried, convicted and sentenced. Would Joseph have ever been officially tried, convicted and sentenced? Thanks to a mob, we'll never know that. According to what Dan has posted, he might have been convicted of bigamy or adultery, but nothing more.

Jersey Girl


Right I don't think J. Smith would be considered a pedophile based on medical diagnosis standards and as far as the law goes he probably would be convicted of bigamy.

I believe though, we can make judgements on the ethics of his behavior. Even in his day his behavior was considered morally wrong. He violated the marriage contract with his wife. She did not accept polygamous marriages. His marriages were in no sense similar to legal contractual civil marriages in which typically the man is responsible for the woman's well being both physically and emotionally. The only purpose and benefit he appeared to get from the (polygamous) agreements was sex. He used his authoritative powers to manipulate and take advantage of others for self interest. The "Fanny affair" was an indication of his moral behavior even in his day. It was an affair. It was unacceptable by those close to him then.

What he was like even in those days is comparable to men in positions of celebrity status today. If you take a male movie star adored by young females fans in their teens, I'm sure many who chose to use their status do bed many women, and many much younger than themselves. I'm not saying that all male celebrities would behave that way, but for some if the opportunity is there they will take advantage of it. Smith had the interest and the opportunity. He could manipulate people for his own ends and he did. It would be considered unethical then as well as now, for anyone in a committed legal relationship to break it.
_Zakuska
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Post by _Zakuska »

Sure Joseph was a Paedophile... haven't you heard Sandy's Christmas Carol...
1. Joseph was an old man,
And an old man was he,
When he wedded Mary
In the land of Galilee.


2. Joseph and Mary walked
Through an orchard good,
Where was cherries and berries
So red as any blood.

3. Joseph and Mary walked
Through an orchard green,
Where was berries and cherries
As thick as might be seen.

4. O then bespoke Mary,
So meek and so mild,
Pluck me one cherry, Joseph,
For I am with child.

5. O then bespoke Joseph
With words most unkind,
Let him pluck thee a cherry
That brought thee with child.

6. O then bespoke the Babe
Within his Mother's womb --
Bow down then the tallest tree
For my Mother to have some.

7. Then bowed down the highest tree
Unto his Mother's hand;
Then she cried, See, Joseph,
I have cherries at command!

8. O then bespake Joseph,
I have done Mary wrong,
But cheer up, my dearest,
And be not cast down.

9. Then Mary plucked a cherry
As red as the blood;
Then Mary went home
With her heavy load.

10. Then Mary took her Babe
And sat him on her knee,
Saying, My dear Son, tell me
What this world will be.

11. O, I shall be as dead, Mother,
As the stones in the wall;
O, the stones in the streets, Mother,
Shall mourn for me all.

12. Upon Easter-day, Mother,
My uprising shall be;
O, the sun and the moon, Mother,
Shall both rise with me.


Mary was only 13 years old when she got pregnant with Jesus.

http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.co ... sandys.htm
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