Was Joseph a Paedophile?

[_marg]

Mary was only 13 years old when she got pregnant with Jesus.

Your point? Please explain how the mythical story of jesus's birth of the Bible is relevant to the discussion of facts and reasoning in this thread.

[_Zakuska]

Because Joseph being steeped in the religion of the Bible. Was merely following prescribed orders of virgins being married off after their instruction in the temple at age 12-13-14 when they got their first menstral cycle.

[_marg]

Because Joseph being steeped in the religion of the Bible. Was merely following prescribed orders of virgins being married off after their instruction in the temple at age 12-13-14 when they got their first menstral cycle.

I see. So what's your opinion? Does it make it ethically morally okay or right for J. Smith in his day to break his marriage contract with his wife, to carrying on sexual affairs behind his wife's back, to go after very young females for sexual purposes much younger than himself...as long as J.Smith interprets that the Bible sanctions his behavior?

[_Mephitus]

I think i should point out that a person can still be defined as a pedophile without being predominantly attracted to pre-pubescent people. Im trying not to post too much in this thread as it has personal implications within my family. Needless to say...i have some rather strong feelings towards this.

[_Mary]

I think the issue of menarche is a red herring. One can be sexually active before one is fertile. The real issue is what the law believed was the age of consent in Illinois in the 1840s, which was for females 10 and males 14.

(my bold) Which only goes to show that historically, young girls were not given much of a voice under the law...
From my (very little) research in this area. The laws of England were changed (in the late 19th C) because of problems with child prostitution.
The consent laws (as far as I know, and someone correct me if I am wrong) grew out of the practices of the aristocracy in marrying their children off at a very young age to secure inheritances. When the law was abused (as in the case of child prostitution) steps were taken to alleviate the problem through legal process.

Again, from the studying I have done, 14 year olds marrying (even in a traditional marriage) were an extremely rare event in almost every European society, and the Parish and Civil records bear that out. Older men marrying very much younger children (rather than two minors) was even more rare.

There is every indication that Joseph was going against (and of course he was with polygamy) strict social convention on acceptable behaviour.

I don't think that one could argue that it was more acceptable then to marry a 14 year old, than it is today. It absolutely was not acceptable. (even if we take out the fact that it would have been a bigamous marriage under the law)

There was a darn good reason that it was all kept hush hush to a great extent.

I'm also not totally sure that the issue of menarche is a red herring???

If Helen was incapable of having children as a pre-pubescent, (and at least the averages suggest that she may not have achieved menarch until around 16) and if she was regarded by her parents and herself as a child, then at the very least we can say that Joseph had a 'sexual interent' (even if he was willing to wait) in a child?????

I guess what worries me more (appreciating that free agency is the mark of an LDS God's path) is the manipulation that was involved, with regard to both Helen and the Mother (who was more than aware of what was going on). What also worries me is the way the women who turned down Joseph's advances were treated in terms of blackening their characters. I can't see God-like behaviour in all this, and it certainly doesn't tie in with the churches site on the character of Joseph Smith

http://www.josephsmith.net/portal/site/ ... D&locale=0

Mary

[_marg]

Excellent post and points you make Mary, with regards to purpose for acceptable marriage ages and the reason for an increase in age over time.

I'd like to comment on the following which you wrote: I don't think that one could argue that it was more acceptable then to marry a 14 year old, than it is today. It absolutely was not acceptable. (even if we take out the fact that it would have been a bigamous marriage under the law)

There was a darn good reason that it was all kept hush hush to a great extent.

I'm also not totally sure that the issue of menarche is a red herring???


Marriage isn't the issue in determing a label of pedophilia..sex or sexual interest with a sexually undeveloped child is. A female does not need menarche to be sexually interested or to appear sexually mature. in my opinion what is relevant to the issue of pedophilia, assuming you want to consider whether or not Smith had an abnormal sexual interest in underdeveloped females/children is whether or not Helen appeared physically very child-like or whether at the age of 14 she appeared physically developed sexually. Given Smith's previous pattern for wives, I would assume she appeared sexually mature and that he doesn't fit the profile of a pedophile. That doesn't make his behavior morally right or acceptable by the standards of his day.

[_Mary]

whether or not Helen appeared physically very child-like or whether at the age of 14 she appeared physically developed sexually

Yes, I (think I!!!) take that point to an extent, with regard to Mandy Smith and Bill Wyman for instance. No way in heaven or hell
did Mandy Smith look like the young 13 year old that she was!!!

http://www.artistdirect.com/Images/artd ... 00x200.jpg

This is the only image I can find of Helen Mar (ikes)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/ ... lenmar.jpg
I don't suppose there are any pictures of a 14 year old Helen Mar just lying about somewhere???

Mary

[_Mary]

For anyone, (like me) who have never read Todd Compton's 'In sacred Loneliness'

I just found this article, which brings up some interesting issues on the subject of Helen Mar,
and also introduces another possible 14 year old as polygamous? wife.

Compton asserts that the question of the nature of the marriage in Helen's case is entirely ambiguous, though there is some circumstantial evidence to suggest that the marriage was for 'eternity' rather than time?



http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/ ... vhmk5.html

Nancy Maria Winchester.

None of this proves he was a paedophile... (though my non-mormon husband makes the same judgment as some on here, that ANYONE in their 30's even wanting to marry 14 year olds, is a paedophile...(oh well))

[_Jason Bourne]

To believe that Joe wanted to marry a 14 year old girl alone is suspect. Joe was a pedophile. There is nothing around this

No he was not. There is no way he was.

14 year olds are children. Given the wealth of biological information it was more than likely she was prepubescent.

How could he NOT be a pedophile?

Read above. Marg made a good case for this.

[_Mary]

Well, I would still very sincerely, like to know Vegas's view on whether Bill Wyman was a paedophile?

I know there are a few (just a few!) important differences, but here we have a modern man having a sexual relationship with an (admittedly gorgeous and looking every bit unlike a 13 year old) 13 year old that later turned (age 18/19) to a very unsuccessful marriage.

Vegas, was Bill a paedophile?