Was Joseph a Paedophile?

[_Yoda]

The normal characteristics of a paedophile, though, is one who concentrates exclusively on the prepubescent aged child.

Weren't Helen Mar Kimball and Fannie Alger the exception rather than the rule? I thought that the other plural wives of Joseph Smith were older (in their mid-to-late 20's.) Am I wrong here?

I know there was an age chart of his wives published somewhere. I'm just too lazy to look it up. LOL

[_Mary]

Liz, Fairwiki says this:

The most conservative estimates indicate that Joseph entered into plural marriages with 33 women, 6 of whom were under the age of 18. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of LDS apostle Heber C. Kimball, who was 14. The rest were 16 (two) or 17 (three).

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/home.htm

This site seems to list the wives of Joseph and is quite helpful, though it puts Fanny Alger as his first plural wife, yet there is no evidence that he ever married her?

Even this relationship seems a little troubling because she was accepted as a daughter into the family (as a pretty young 16 year old), and Emma was oblivious to Joseph's actions towards Fanny???

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/Age.htm

This link is interesting because it gives the average (again average!) age of marriage in the 1840's as between 21 and 22.
Fair wiki argues that no eyebrows were raised over Joseph's marriages to the young girls, but this is a bit misleading, since I would imagine the society they were operating in was rather closed, and because polygamy was kept an 'official' secret anyway. It wasn't like they were operating under the 'norms' of the larger society of which they were a part?

Mary

[_Yoda]

Thanks for finding the link, Mary.

I am also troubled by this whole part of Joseph Smith's life.

I do believe that he translated the Book of Mormon, but this whole plural marriage thing is always something that has bothered me.

Also..there is more evidence...although speculative....that points to Joseph and Fanny's relationship being an affair.

[_Mary]

Van Wagoner's book was a big part of my gradual retreat from activity, I had a particular problem with Fanny Alger (from that book) and polyandry, I couldn't reconcile it with what I had always been taught about Joseph. (sigh)


Vegas...would you regard Bill Wyman as a paedophile? He began his relationship with Mandy Smith when he was 47 and she was only 13. He was lucky to escape imprisonment. I know we can only take this comparison so far, (since there was no religious manipulation involved) and of course, he definitely sailed close to the wind, but I don't think there are many who consider/ed him a paedophile???

Helen Mar Kimball's mother seemed to think of her as still a child at the time of marriage though, and interesting that Helen herself is using the expression 'child' in the recount...???

from: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-He ... imball.htm

the principle of Celestial marrage...After which he said to me, ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God & his angels could see my mother’s bleeding heart-when Joseph asked her if she was willing...She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older & who better understood the step they were taking, & to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come...; but it was all hidden from me.” Helen’s mother reluctantly agreed and in May of 1843, Helen married Joseph Smith.

If she had scarcely seen her 15th summer then she would have only JUST turned 14???




Regards
Mary

[_harmony]

from: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-He ... imball.htm

the principle of Celestial marrage...After which he said to me, ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God & his angels could see my mother’s bleeding heart-when Joseph asked her if she was willing...She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older & who better understood the step they were taking, & to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come...; but it was all hidden from me.” Helen’s mother reluctantly agreed and in May of 1843, Helen married Joseph Smith.

If she had scarcely seen her 15th summer then she would have only JUST turned 14???

I have so little patience with this sort of thing, I am almost incoherent. Helen's mother doesn't deserve the label "mother", and her father deserved to be tied to a stake and whipped. They sacrificed their CHILD for themselves! For a promise! For NOTHING! ARGH!!!! The amount of selfishness that is in that quote is just unbelievable. Her mother KNEW what she was agreeing to, KNEW what was coming, and she did it anyway. No guts, no backbone, no gumption. It was wicked then, it's still wicked today. Helen was a CHILD.

[_harmony]

Also..there is more evidence...although speculative....that points to Joseph and Fanny's relationship being an affair.

The History of the Church lists Fanny as Joseph's first plural wife.

[_Yoda]

Also..there is more evidence...although speculative....that points to Joseph and Fanny's relationship being an affair.

The History of the Church lists Fanny as Joseph's first plural wife.

I thought that, as Mary said earlier, there was speculation on whether evidence of a "marriage" existed. Isn't it true that Fanny wasn't sealed to Joseph until much later? Hadn't she already been "sent away" by Emma? My understanding was that she was sent packing back to her hometown with her parents...and we're never sure if it had to do with her being pregnant or not.

I wish I could remember where I read that. I'll have to look up the source.

[_harmony]

Also..there is more evidence...although speculative....that points to Joseph and Fanny's relationship being an affair.

The History of the Church lists Fanny as Joseph's first plural wife.

I thought that, as Mary said earlier, there was speculation on whether evidence of a "marriage" existed. Isn't it true that Fanny wasn't sealed to Joseph until much later? Hadn't she already been "sent away" by Emma? My understanding was that she was sent packing back to her hometown with her parents...and we're never sure if it had to do with her being pregnant or not.

I wish I could remember where I read that. I'll have to look up the source.

Fanny would never talk about it. Someone had the sealing done later, but for what it's worth, the church recognizes Fanny as one of Joseph's wives.

[_Mary]

Liz, it's in Van Wagoner's Mormon Polygamy.

I'll see if I can search out the quotes..

Mary

[_Mary]

Harmony, I think the church HAS to put her forward as one of his first wives, even though there is no evidence, because the only other conclusion that one could come to based on what evidence we do have is that he had an 'affair' with her, and that would do his credibility no good???

Mary