Was Joseph a Paedophile?

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
_Dan Vogel
_Emeritus
Posts: 876
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:26 am

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Marg,

Right I don't think J. Smith would be considered a pedophile based on medical diagnosis standards and as far as the law goes he probably would be convicted of bigamy.


Quite possibly.

I believe though, we can make judgements on the ethics of his behavior. Even in his day his behavior was considered morally wrong. He violated the marriage contract with his wife. She did not accept polygamous marriages. His marriages were in no sense similar to legal contractual civil marriages in which typically the man is responsible for the woman's well being both physically and emotionally. The only purpose and benefit he appeared to get from the (polygamous) agreements was sex. He used his authoritative powers to manipulate and take advantage of others for self interest. The "Fanny affair" was an indication of his moral behavior even in his day. It was an affair. It was unacceptable by those close to him then.


While I think Joseph Smith sexually, emotionally, and spiritually abused some of his followers, I think it's also important not to assume he did not have a way of justifying his behavior, or that there wasn't some degree of sincere belief in his rationalizations. I think there can be a knee jerk reaction to Joseph Smith's practice that assumes lust as the sole motivation, similar to what Americans thought about Mormon polygamy in Utah. This fails to consider the long history of Christian polygamy and concubinage that extends back to the Reformation. Can one reasonably think that the founder of a radically extreme and fundamentalistic restoration movement would not broach the subject of plural marriage at some point? i don't think one can understand Joseph Smith's practice without considering the possibility that he may have had theological motivations as well dating back to the dictation of the Book of Mormon. While I think plural marriage was on Joseph Smith's mind since 1829, his ideas about how to go about it probably evolved. It is likely that when he was confronted by others about his behavior--such as in the Fanny affair--that he gave theological justifications, which resulted in Cowdery and others adding to the 1835 D&C an explicit statement that monogamy was the rule of the church.

In his 1842 letter to Nancy Rigdon, he did not deny the pleasure aspect of plural marriage, but he also outlined the means by which such behavior could be justified--revelation and commandment. He also fully acknowledged that apostate Christian America would not understand the principle. So, there are complex issues involved, and I think the lust argument is too reductionistic.

When I argued that Joseph Smith should be judged by the standards to his own time, it was in regard to the issue of pedophile and marriageable age. In other words, it was about something for which he and others would not have the same sensibilities as we do today. So I was advising not to commit the fallacy of presentism. In the case of plural marriage, he and others involved were fully aware and intentionally violating the law as well as cultural norms in order to live what they thought was God's law. In such case, it is difficult to label such behavior as unethical, unless one assumes--as you do--that Joseph Smith only wanted sex and didn't believe his own rationalizations.

What he was like even in those days is comparable to men in positions of celebrity status today. If you take a male movie star adored by young females fans in their teens, I'm sure many who chose to use their status do bed many women, and many much younger than themselves. I'm not saying that all male celebrities would behave that way, but for some if the opportunity is there they will take advantage of it.


Why do you think it's OK to force Joseph Smith into this model? Would you not think it strange if someone tried to apply a theological model onto the rock star's behavior?

Smith had the interest and the opportunity. He could manipulate people for his own ends and he did. It would be considered unethical then as well as now, for anyone in a committed legal relationship to break it.


First, you are assuming insincerity to prove insincerity. Second, you are assuming the law decides what is ethical. Monogamy might be a cultural norm, but in and of itself is not more ethical than polygamy. If Joseph Smith and others chose to live polygamy, they might be violating the law, but they were not necessarily less ethical than monogamists.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Zakuska
_Emeritus
Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

marg wrote:
Zakuska wrote:Because Joseph being steeped in the religion of the Bible. Was merely following prescribed orders of virgins being married off after their instruction in the temple at age 12-13-14 when they got their first menstral cycle.


I see. So what's your opinion? Does it make it ethically morally okay or right for J. Smith in his day to break his marriage contract with his wife, to carrying on sexual affairs behind his wife's back, to go after very young females for sexual purposes much younger than himself...as long as J.Smith interprets that the Bible sanctions his behavior?


Well first show proof of "Sexual affairs". Since he was "sealing" men to him as well why do we jump to the conclusion that his motivation was sexual in nature?

I'd be intresting in finding out the names and ages of the men that where sealed to him as well.

OK... where's my lightning rod...
First, you are assuming insincerity to prove insincerity. Second, you are assuming the law decides what is ethical. Monogamy might be a cultural norm, but in and of itself is not more ethical than polygamy. If Joseph Smith and others chose to live polygamy, they might be violating the law, but they were not necessarily less ethical than monogamists.

AMEN DAN!
_Seven
_Emeritus
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:52 pm

Post by _Seven »

edit
Last edited by Shadrak on Mon May 05, 2008 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Seven
_Emeritus
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:52 pm

Post by _Seven »

Zakuska wrote:
marg wrote:
Zakuska wrote:Because Joseph being steeped in the religion of the Bible. Was merely following prescribed orders of virgins being married off after their instruction in the temple at age 12-13-14 when they got their first menstral cycle.


I see. So what's your opinion? Does it make it ethically morally okay or right for J. Smith in his day to break his marriage contract with his wife, to carrying on sexual affairs behind his wife's back, to go after very young females for sexual purposes much younger than himself...as long as J.Smith interprets that the Bible sanctions his behavior?


Well first show proof of "Sexual affairs". Since he was "sealing" men to him as well why do we jump to the conclusion that his motivation was sexual in nature?

I'd be intresting in finding out the names and ages of the men that where sealed to him as well.


His motivation was not purely sexual, but power. That is why he tested faithful men by asking for their wives.
I believe there were 33 WIVES that Todd Compton sets apart from the numerous sealings that were done. From the evidence, these were marriages for time and eternity.
(and from the testimonies of some, "in every deed")

Comparing his sealings to men is like comparing sealings of children to a couple and the marriage/sealing for time and all eternity with a spouse. They are not the same and you know better.
_Zakuska
_Emeritus
Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

You're assuming again. Why would God draw up provisions to manage it in the Law he gave Moses? Why would God send an Angel to force Hagar back into a Polygomous relationship?

Infact... You are forgetting about Abraham and Jacob. Jacob worked 14 years for his 4 wives.

Yes in a Perfect world 1 man 1 woman is the norm. But this isn't a perfect world. When one spose dies is the other one supposed to dawn black and remain unwed for the reast of his/her life?

that's a pretty sad existance. if they cannot learn to love another.

Comparing his sealings to men is like comparing sealings of children to a couple and the marriage/sealing for time and all eternity with a spouse. They are not the same and you know better.


Heres the problem... why do you consider his sealings to men only sealings but to the women... it was a marriage? (If I recall correctly The men where sealed for eternity as well)

Even Helen called it a "sealing".

The Mother daughter pair that where "sealed" to him said the only time theey saw him was when Emma and he would drop his shirts off each week to be washed. That sounds like some pretty risky business dropping of his dirty laundry. :rolleyes:
Last edited by Guest on Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Dan,

If a murderer murders based on sincerity, let’s say he/she believes God revealed to them they should kill someone..that doesn’t make their behavior of killing an innocent individual ethical. Their own justification for harming, abusing or taking advantage of others for personal selfish interests is irrelevant to whether their actions against others is ethical or not. You basically argued Smith actions were unethical yourself when you said “While I think Joseph Smith sexually, emotionally, and spiritually abused some of his followers” Abuse of others is unethical, wouldn’t you say? I don’t think Smith’s sexual interest was unethical. What I think is unethical is lying to his wife, breaking his contractual legal marriage agreement with her by sexual relations outside their marriage of which she wasn’t in agreement. He had a history of sexual relations with women, starting with the Fanny affair in which I believe it was Cowdery who called it something along the lines of a “dirty nasty affair.” Given his history beginning with Fanny it appears his primary motivation was sex in many if not most of the known polygamous relationships. The part which is unethical is his use of authority to satisfy what evidence appears to indicate was his personal sexual appetite.

Now while one can argue polygamy is acceptable in other cultures, typically there are conditions present. One being the male provides for and takes care of the women, two there are often circumstances such as few men available due to catastrophes such as war, or perhaps a male dies and leaves a wife and a brother will marry and take care of her. Even concubinage was a contractual arrangement in which the man provided for the concubine as set out in the contract. Joseph however wasn’t providing for these women in any way emotionally or financially, there was no shortage of men, no need for him to have sexual relations with the women…behind his wife’s back.

As far as your comment: “Why do you think it's OK to force Joseph Smith into this model? Would you not think it strange if someone tried to apply a theological model onto the rock star's behavior?”

I find it strange that you don’t see the similarities.
What we are discussing is behavior. J. Smith was idolized, people worshipped him. That same sort of phenomenon occurs with celebrities, occurs with charismatic individuals who have followers. Men in these sorts of positions typically have no difficulty if they are so inclined to bed women. And that is biologically programmed into men, to impregnate as many women as possible. I think it likely that in the majority of cases for Smith he had little difficulty bedding anyone he proposed to given his position and that he was idolized.

by the way.. I will respond to the post in the Spalding thread perhaps this evening or tomorrow. I have things to do today.
_Zakuska
_Emeritus
Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

Abraham sure was thought to be ethical when he attempted to murder his son.

Heb 11
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

So was Phinehas...

Num 25
6 ¶ And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
10 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.


Theres even a Psalms praising his Cold blooded murder...

Pslams 106
30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Zakuska wrote:Abraham sure was thought to be ethical when he attempted to murder his son.



That must be confusing for you Zakuska in determining what is ethical or not when you have been told to use the Bible for your guide.

I view the Bible as filled with mythical stories, not as an authoritative guide to moral values. If you want to argue ethics using the Bible such as in this case you'll also have to give an explanation why you think God's test of Abraham was ethical and if Abraham had killed his son, why that would be ethical.
_Mary
_Emeritus
Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:45 pm

Post by _Mary »

Zakuska,

I understand that Joseph Smith may have read certain passages of the Old Testament, and then attempted to transpose those ethics into the culture that he and others were creating in 19th century America. How on earth was he ever going to win though? How on earth can anyone transpose the possible values of a millenia old culture into 19th century America and succeed. It would just never work (and didn't for him ultimately).

Can you imagine what would have happened if he had used the (probably mythical) story of Abraham and Isaac, as justification for infanticide, or the story of Noah for incest, or the stories of the various wars to justify genocide?

It's dangerous territory because you can then justify pretty much ANY behaviour, no matter how reprehensible, and then put it down to....oh well...it was okay in the Old Testament, so it's okay now.....
_Zakuska
_Emeritus
Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

Not really. Under certian circumstances even murder is justified. Think what the cops did at Trolley square. Was it ethical for them to shoot back and use deadly force?

As the preacher said...

Eccl 3
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Wisdom is knowing when the time of such behavior is acceptable.
Post Reply