A question for atheist philsophers

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_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:You could be a Viking. Vikings who kill in battle go to Valhalla where they can fight to the death every day and then come back the next and do it all over again. Vikings were also big on revenge and never turned the other cheek, you'd get to kill people with impunity and have eternal life. So many options!


Valhalla, I just now realized that Conan speaks of this place in the movie Conan the Barbarian. I still jump for joy when Conan cuts off Thulsadoom's head and destroys the snake cult. While revenge doesn't necessarily make logical sense from an individual perspective, I think the desire evolved in human beings for a reason. I think it was more practical when people lived in smaller communities. Reputations were more important and chances were that you would cross paths with someone many times. This would allow Karma more oppurtunities to balance itself quicker.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

marg wrote:
ajax18 wrote:I think strengthening the family and taking a very tough line against divorce are done with the welfare of the children in mind. I still see divorce often times as what's best for the parents, but not the children. I'm not saying every time mind you, but often times it seems this way to me. I think that sexual morality was very concerned with providing children with proper homes to grow up in at one time, especially before contraception. The taboo against masturbation has no other explanation to me but a fear that people will not marry and that there will not be a second generation.


You are assuming atheists have a higher divorce rate. I don't think statistical studies bear this out. Do some research on this. A god belief doesn't stop people from divorcing.


I'm not saying that atheists have a higher divorce rate. I was just saying that I think religion put these laws and restrictions in place with future generations in mind.


What I'm hearing is that basically the purpose of life to atheists is happiness. I appreciate your responses, Quantum Wave & Marg. No I don't have all the answers. I was just interested to know what motivated atheists to go through life. I guess I've got my answer.


I'm not talking about partying Ajax. Everyone seeks happiness. You are looking for happiness when you say "you believe there must be a purpose to life." It bothers you to think there may not be any, so to relieve that feeling of anxiety which makes you uncomfortable you chose to believe in an afterlife. That gives you comfort, happiness.


Most definitely I'm looking for happiness when I say that. It's just interesting to me that other people are not bothered by the thought that life does not have a purpose or meaning. It sure bothers me.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_marg

Post by _marg »

ajax18 wrote: Most definitely I'm looking for happiness when I say that. It's just interesting to me that other people are not bothered by the thought that life does not have a purpose or meaning. It sure bothers me.


Well having a belief in an afterlife does not provide purpose. A purpose implies an objective/goal in mind to accomplish something...so what does an afterlife (in your belief) accomplish?

I don't attempt to make up imaginary wishful thinking stories and view them as true. It wouldn't make me feel any better if I did as I'd appreciate my ideas are just that, imaginary. And I don't dwell upon thoughts of my death.
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

One can always hope though right? I hope there will be a universal resurrection. I hope there will be an ultimate justice. I hope that the pain I've suffered in this life will be of benefit in some way.

I can't prove that we continue to exist after death, but neither can anyone else prove that we do not. Therefore there is no science left. We can only hope for the best. I think this hope should influence how we live our lives.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_marg

Post by _marg »

ajax18 wrote:One can always hope though right? I hope there will be a universal resurrection. I hope there will be an ultimate justice. I hope that the pain I've suffered in this life will be of benefit in some way.

I can't prove that we continue to exist after death, but neither can anyone else prove that we do not. Therefore there is no science left. We can only hope for the best. I think this hope should influence how we live our lives.


Right, but if you have an attitude that atheists are less moral, that doesn't influence your life for the best. You are prejudging and making assumptions without adequate grounds. If you dwell on an afterlife, you will likely have a tendancy to not care much about the present life, to not care much about the environment.

I'm quite satisfied with my life and have no desire to hope for an afterlife, but if I had a terrible life I probably would want to hope for something better in the future.

I have no idea what you mean by there is no science left. I hope you aren't criticizing science. There is no need to do that.
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

marg wrote:
ajax18 wrote:One can always hope though right? I hope there will be a universal resurrection. I hope there will be an ultimate justice. I hope that the pain I've suffered in this life will be of benefit in some way.

I can't prove that we continue to exist after death, but neither can anyone else prove that we do not. Therefore there is no science left. We can only hope for the best. I think this hope should influence how we live our lives.


Right, but if you have an attitude that atheists are less moral, that doesn't influence your life for the best. You are prejudging and making assumptions without adequate grounds. If you dwell on an afterlife, you will likely have a tendancy to not care much about the present life, to not care much about the environment.

I'm quite satisfied with my life and have no desire to hope for an afterlife, but if I had a terrible life I probably would want to hope for something better in the future.

I have no idea what you mean by there is no science left. I hope you aren't criticizing science. There is no need to do that.


Easy Marg. Perhaps I haven't made myself clear. I remain very impressed with the level of morality of people who have no belief in the afterlife. I just wondered what made them tick. No criticism hear. As far as I can remember I have had desire for an afterlife and I don't think it was just religion. OF course my parents gave me religious answers but as a toddler I came up with the basic existential questions on my own. I would guess a lot of people do.

I'm just saying that science cannot prove that there is no afterlife, so we have to go on things like faith and hope. No criticism of science from me. I'm a biochemist. If I opened my mouth in Church more I'd probably get thrown out for being too scientific

Perhaps it's a good thing that I don't become obsessed with the present life. After the unfairness I've seen in this world against myself and others and my abosolute inability to stop it by legal means, I doubt I'd still be alive because I wouldn't have been able to live with such things. My last few bosses would be dead now as well as me. Maybe the world would be a better place for the next worker, but I think God would like them to have a second chance
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_marg

Post by _marg »

ajax18 wrote: Easy Marg. Perhaps I haven't made myself clear. I remain very impressed with the level of morality of people who have no belief in the afterlife. I just wondered what made them tick. No criticism hear. As far as I can remember I have had desire for an afterlife and I don't think it was just religion. OF course my parents gave me religious answers but as a toddler I came up with the basic existential questions on my own. I would guess a lot of people do.


Well actually you implied that atheists tend to be criminals in your response here: In a way I can see where atheists do make the world a better place. If I had gotten revenge on the people who mistreated me, they would probably have at least had second thoughts before screwing over the next person in their path. Or they may not have been around to even do that. Perhaps I wouldn't either, but the world still has one or possibly two fewer abusers to deal with. When Christians turn the other cheek, it seems to give these people the green light.

But I don't think that your comments against atheists are unusual. On this board I often see comments from those who are religious indicating they think they have a moral highground and those not religious and in particular those not Mormon are morally depraved, alcoholics, drug addicts, adulterers, prone to divorce. It is a major part of the training in Mormonism to teach that followers are morally superior to those outside their group. So you are not unusual in your comments which reflect this type of thinking.


I'm just saying that science cannot prove that there is no afterlife, so we have to go on things like faith and hope. No criticism of science from me. I'm a biochemist. If I opened my mouth in Church more I'd probably get thrown out for being too scientific


It is irrelevant that science can't prove. And instead of using the word science, think of it as critical thought or examination. Logically there are many things which can not be critically examined. Things which in fact do not exist and never existed can not be critically examined...ever, that has nothing to do with science. Nothing can be said about something which doesn't exist. The only thing which can be said is if the things claimed are described as existing within certain parameters such as a confined area. Then that area can be examined and the emptiness enables one to say nothing exists in the area, therefore the thing claimed doesn't exist in that area.

You are right that an afterlife must be believed based on faith and hope. Those who make claims for an afterlife offer nothing which can be critically examined which could disprove an afterlife. So the problem is not that science can't disprove an afterlife but rather that those who make claims can't prove an afterlife and offer nothing for examination. By saying science can't prove there is no afterlife (which is what you said), it is a fallacious attempt to shift the burden of proof onto others when the burden of proof should be and is on those who make the claim. The process used in science has no burden to disprove an afterlife, the problem remains with the claimants, it is their burden to prove an afterlife. My beef in this ajax is that you brought up science in this discussion, when science was irrelevant.

Perhaps it's a good thing that I don't become obsessed with the present life. After the unfairness I've seen in this world against myself and others and my abosolute inability to stop it by legal means, I doubt I'd still be alive because I wouldn't have been able to live with such things. My last few bosses would be dead now as well as me. Maybe the world would be a better place for the next worker, but I think God would like them to have a second chance


I have no idea what you are talking about. It actually sounds like you might need some professional counselling to deal with your anger. And it's possible that some of the problems you have are a function of your choices and your perceptions. You indicate you have major issues when you say you are so angry at people that you'd like to kill them, but only hold back because of your christian beliefs. If I were you, I'd seek some professional counseling.
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

marg wrote:
ajax18 wrote: Easy Marg. Perhaps I haven't made myself clear. I remain very impressed with the level of morality of people who have no belief in the afterlife. I just wondered what made them tick. No criticism hear. As far as I can remember I have had desire for an afterlife and I don't think it was just religion. OF course my parents gave me religious answers but as a toddler I came up with the basic existential questions on my own. I would guess a lot of people do.


Well actually you implied that atheists tend to be criminals in your response here: In a way I can see where atheists do make the world a better place. If I had gotten revenge on the people who mistreated me, they would probably have at least had second thoughts before screwing over the next person in their path. Or they may not have been around to even do that. Perhaps I wouldn't either, but the world still has one or possibly two fewer abusers to deal with. When Christians turn the other cheek, it seems to give these people the green light.


Maybe it would better to say that this is where the philsophy I know as atheism would lead me. For me, if there is no afterlife and no ultimate justice and someone makes me so miserable by his oppression that I would rather cease to exist than live to suffer this treatment another day, there's really nothing that would stop me from getting my vengenace if I had the chance, not even professional counseling. Once life is that miserable, fear of death penalty is really no fear at all. This is what helps me understand why an atheist would be willing to fight in a war and die.

I'm sorry if I offended you as an atheist. I really have nothing against atheist. I just wanted to understand them a little better. I fully admit that atheist can and have demonstrated that they can be ethical people as well. I just don't exactly understand what motivates them to choose to do so. What good is happiness if it's not lasting?
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_marg

Post by _marg »

ajax18 wrote:
Maybe it would better to say that this is where the philsophy I know as atheism would lead me. For me, if there is no afterlife and no ultimate justice and someone makes me so miserable by his oppression that I would rather cease to exist than live to suffer this treatment another day, there's really nothing that would stop me from getting my vengenace if I had the chance, not even professional counseling. Once life is that miserable, fear of death penalty is really no fear at all. This is what helps me understand why an atheist would be willing to fight in a war and die.


Well actually there are things which will stop you, one is called the legal system, the other is your natural sense of right and wrong. You do appreciate if you have any sense of right and wrong, that killing someone in revenge is way over the top, flat out wrong. If your life is as miserable as you seem to imply, again I suggest you get some help.

I'm sorry if I offended you as an atheist. I really have nothing against atheist. I just wanted to understand them a little better. I fully admit that atheist can and have demonstrated that they can be ethical people as well. I just don't exactly understand what motivates them to choose to do so. What good is happiness if it's not lasting?


You haven't offended me. I look upon your remarks as a reflection of your prejudices, probably as a result of your indoctrination by your church. That speaks about you, not me. It doesn't offend me. You've managed to pick up the idea that without an afterlife belief, nothing would hold you back from criminal acts. That's a belief you have. You seem to believe you'd have little control over your actions were it not for your religious beliefs keeping you in check. That belief effectively shifts responsibility away from you and makes you reliant on the religious system.

Other people without that indoctrination and belief (which you have) do what's right, as a function of being part of a social group in which negative ramifications often ensue if they disrespected the rights of others. As well the legal system, keeps in check those who disrespect the rights of others. Most of my sense of what's right and wrong I obtained through social interaction and observations, particularly my parents. And I think you'd probably find that to be the case with most people.

If you really thought the afterlife was so wonderful, why bother living at all? I'm not trying to encourage suicide but your beliefs are inconsistent with what you say. I think you need to learn healthy and effective ways of dealing with anger. You seem to be attempting to suppress it rather than address it in a healthy way.

As far as "what good is happiness if not everlasting?" it's a matter of perspective. Why should an everlasting life be all that wonderful, especially if as you claim the present one is the pits? Shift your focus to your present life, make good decisions which lead to you appreciating your life instead of looking upon it negatively, appreciate the good times relative to the bad, respect the rights of others and treat yourself with respect.
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

I'm not just talking about myself and my own experience. I'm talking about the most extreme situations that some human beings have lived through and continue to do so.

I think I already explained that in some cases threats from the legal system are insufficient motivation. The legal system didn't stop the American colonists from mounting a revolution.

Other people without that indoctrination and belief (which you have) do what's right, as a function of being part of a social group in which negative ramifications often ensue if they disrespected the rights of others.


What holds you back if you know you can get away with it?

If you really thought the afterlife was so wonderful, why bother living at all?


I guess that's why most religions make the kind of afterlife we go to conditional upon our actions here. I don't think the immediate after life at least would be very good at all, if I chose to kill myself. Granted it, it's hard to judge but you get the picture. Joseph Smith did say that if we could see even the Terrestrial kingdom, we would kill ourselves to get there.

Why should an everlasting life be all that wonderful, especially if as you claim the present one is the pits?


No pain, no hunger, no fatigue, super mental and physical powers. Not having to put up with evil people since they have now been relegated to live with people like themselves and have no more power to cause me grief? It sounds pretty good to me.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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