A question for atheist philsophers

[_ajax18]

Thanks for the reply Quantum Wave. I had never considered the idea of an atheist who believed in the supernatural.

You said that we were on a spiritual journey. What exactly is it that we are progressing toward at an accelerated or retarded rate? When I asked why people who don't hold beliefs of an afterlife do what they do, I wasn't referring to self control of criminal behavior as much as, "What makes you fight through work everyday or just face the grind of life?"

Why would anyone take a job that's a fight to get through every day?

Because they need to eat maybe? Have you ever seen the movie office space?

Why is life a grind? Life is short; eat dessert first!

Life is a struggle. If it's not now, it will be at some point for almost all of us.

[_ajax18]

For those who think that religion helps individuals make better moral decisions..I'd be interested in you explaining to me or giving some examples of why or how an atheist would be likely to make poorer moral decisions than let's say a Christian.

Personally I could think of quite a few people I would have either killed or done some serious hurt if I didn't believe in an afterlife and ultimately a fairness. If my belief were simply, well they got me there, and since taking revenge isn't the right thing to do, they're going to get away with doing this to me , I doubt I would have declined to react. Just trheatening a person with death if he kills another isn't always sufficient motivation to stop violence. If one person is able to make another miserable enought that death is preferable, he would gladly lose his own life and take the lives of his abusers on the way out.

In a way I can see where atheists do make the world a better place. If I had gotten revenge on the people who mistreated me, they would probably have at least had second thoughts before screwing over the next person in their path. Or they may not have been around to even do that. Perhaps I wouldn't either, but the world still has one or possibly two fewer abusers to deal with. When Christians turn the other cheek, it seems to give these people the green light.

I amazed at those who think that joy of this life makes it all worth it in and of itself. That's not good enough for me at all. I guess I need religion or at least beliefs that I can't prove.

[_harmony]

Thanks for the reply Quantum Wave. I had never considered the idea of an atheist who believed in the supernatural.

You said that we were on a spiritual journey. What exactly is it that we are progressing toward at an accelerated or retarded rate? When I asked why people who don't hold beliefs of an afterlife do what they do, I wasn't referring to self control of criminal behavior as much as, "What makes you fight through work everyday or just face the grind of life?"

Why would anyone take a job that's a fight to get through every day?

Because they need to eat maybe? Have you ever seen the movie office space?

Nope. I lived most of my life under the poverty line and half of it in daily agony, and I still don't see life as a fight to get through every day.

Why is life a grind? Life is short; eat dessert first!

Life is a struggle. If it's not now, it will be at some point for almost all of us.

You sound like a glass-half-empty person, a pessimist, always assuming the worst will happen. I don't live that way; I can't live that way; I'm not made that way. Every day is a chance to make a change for the better. Every day is a new opportunity.

[_marg]

In a way I can see where atheists do make the world a better place. If I had gotten revenge on the people who mistreated me, they would probably have at least had second thoughts before screwing over the next person in their path. Or they may not have been around to even do that. Perhaps I wouldn't either, but the world still has one or possibly two fewer abusers to deal with. When Christians turn the other cheek, it seems to give these people the green light.

I get the impression you think of atheists as lawless thugs and abusers. And the reason being that they have no concerns of punishment in the aferlife whereas a religious individual does plus a religious individual can rest assured that those deserving of punishment will be punished in the afterlife so they don't need to take out revenge on their abusers.

Logically what you say makes sense. People are generally motivated by rewards and want to avoid punishments.

So what is the reward for an atheist to treat others with respect. Well I think it boils down to "do unto others what you'd like done unto you." Socially deviant individuals tend to be ostracized from any group. So social pressure is one way, which keeps people, atheists included from abusing and disrespecting the rights of others. Of course there are also laws and the legal system which helps to control socially unacceptable behavior.

Belief in an afterlife isn't a foolproof incentive which keeps people in check. Because a God belief is a reflection of one's own mind. So it's just a matter of whatever an individual wants to do no matter how unethical, he/she can use their God to justify it. As far as turning the other cheek, that's also a matter of maturity, not just a Christian idea. A mature individual appreciates there is only one life to live and at times it's best in the long run for themselves to ignore and walk away rather than attempt to take out revenge. From my personal experience Ajax, I have found that atheists have extremely high moral values but I'm not sure why that is.

I amazed at those who think that joy of this life makes it all worth it in and of itself. That's not good enough for me at all. I guess I need religion or at least beliefs that I can't prove.

The quest for most is happiness. But one can't be happy all the time, there has to be lows to appreciate the highs. But for you personally, if religious beliefs add value to your life, you can't knock it. It's important to keep in mind though that respect of others shouldn't just be for the present generation living, one should also keep in mind respect and the rights of others of future generations. Focusing so much on one's own afterlife, tends to make one loose focus of the present, and the planet in the future.

[_ajax18]

I've found most atheists to be very moral people as well. I remember that philosophers such as Spinoza seemed to hold no belief in God or an afterlife but lived very moral lives. These weren't common people though. I've also met some who take the attitude, "This is life, the one you get, so the only thing that matters is, "What's good for me right now?"

I see a lot of value in living for future generations and a lot of religious morals can be explained as relative to the betterment of future generations, but even the human species occupies a very small amount of time in the eternal perspective as does life itself. Therefore to me, while the good of future generations, especially those that are biologically linked to us, is very motivating, it still doesn't completely answer the question, "What is the meaning of life?"

Of course many will counter, "Who says life has a meaning?" To me there has to be a meaning in everything.

[_marg]

I see a lot of value in living for future generations and a lot of religious morals can be explained as relative to the betterment of future generations, ...

Could you elaborate on what religious morals relate to betterment of future generations?

Of course many will counter, "Who says life has a meaning?" To me there has to be a meaning in everything.

Ok so you have that belief "there has to be a meaning to everything" but is there any value to creating an answer which quite possibly has no truth in it. Your belief creates the need for an answer, but it doesn't make the answer relevant to reality and doesn't necessarily make your life better off. Another alternative is to not spend much time concerning yourself with the afterlife, something beyond your control. And be honest with yourself and acknowledge you don't have the answers and you may never have the answers...but that's okay. There must be things in life you enjoy which makes it worth living. If not then you need to change your life so that you do.

[_Mephitus]

The statistic is that .02% of people in jail are atheist. The conservative estimate on actual atheists within the USA is around 7-9%

Using that, it would be a pretty easy argument on who the more "moraly correct" or better behaved people are.

My question would be, how many were atheists when they got there, and how many decided to find God upon getting in there?

Simple, they poll you as you come in as part of the basic information to understand if you have any special needs to compensate for your faith. Such as vegan meals or kosher foods. etc

[_ajax18]

I think strengthening the family and taking a very tough line against divorce are done with the welfare of the children in mind. I still see divorce often times as what's best for the parents, but not the children. I'm not saying every time mind you, but often times it seems this way to me. I think that sexual morality was very concerned with providing children with proper homes to grow up in at one time, especially before contraception. The taboo against masturbation has no other explanation to me but a fear that people will not marry and that there will not be a second generation.

Then there is the thought that if people do not believe that this life is the end, they're more willing to sacrifice their lives in battle rather than live in slavery. These sacrfices have benefited future generations.

What I'm hearing is that basically the purpose of life to atheists is happiness. I appreciate your responses, Quantum Wave & Marg. No I don't have all the answers. I was just interested to know what motivated atheists to go through life. I guess I've got my answer.

[_marg]

I think strengthening the family and taking a very tough line against divorce are done with the welfare of the children in mind. I still see divorce often times as what's best for the parents, but not the children. I'm not saying every time mind you, but often times it seems this way to me. I think that sexual morality was very concerned with providing children with proper homes to grow up in at one time, especially before contraception. The taboo against masturbation has no other explanation to me but a fear that people will not marry and that there will not be a second generation.

You are assuming atheists have a higher divorce rate. I don't think statistical studies bear this out. Do some research on this. A god belief doesn't stop people from divorcing.

What I'm hearing is that basically the purpose of life to atheists is happiness. I appreciate your responses, Quantum Wave & Marg. No I don't have all the answers. I was just interested to know what motivated atheists to go through life. I guess I've got my answer.

I'm not talking about partying Ajax. Everyone seeks happiness. You are looking for happiness when you say "you believe there must be a purpose to life." It bothers you to think there may not be any, so to relieve that feeling of anxiety which makes you uncomfortable you chose to believe in an afterlife. That gives you comfort, happiness.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

For those who think that religion helps individuals make better moral decisions..I'd be interested in you explaining to me or giving some examples of why or how an atheist would be likely to make poorer moral decisions than let's say a Christian.

Personally I could think of quite a few people I would have either killed or done some serious hurt if I didn't believe in an afterlife and ultimately a fairness. If my belief were simply, well they got me there, and since taking revenge isn't the right thing to do, they're going to get away with doing this to me , I doubt I would have declined to react. Just trheatening a person with death if he kills another isn't always sufficient motivation to stop violence. If one person is able to make another miserable enought that death is preferable, he would gladly lose his own life and take the lives of his abusers on the way out.

In a way I can see where atheists do make the world a better place. If I had gotten revenge on the people who mistreated me, they would probably have at least had second thoughts before screwing over the next person in their path. Or they may not have been around to even do that. Perhaps I wouldn't either, but the world still has one or possibly two fewer abusers to deal with. When Christians turn the other cheek, it seems to give these people the green light.

I amazed at those who think that joy of this life makes it all worth it in and of itself. That's not good enough for me at all. I guess I need religion or at least beliefs that I can't prove.

You could be a Viking. Vikings who kill in battle go to Valhalla where they can fight to the death every day and then come back the next and do it all over again. Vikings were also big on revenge and never turned the other cheek, you'd get to kill people with impunity and have eternal life. So many options!