Transparency in Church Finances

[_moksha]

I thought this had the makings of a good separate thread and that the Celestial Forum would be the best place for it:

Sono Hito wrote:

why me wrote:

moksha wrote:
Let's use the reporting of Church Finances as an example. As an LSD person it makes all the sense in the world to me that they would want to be as up front as possible to show the world that they are squeaky clean. I don't understand why they don't do this and I find the multitude of reasons other member have advanced to defend the Church not doing so to be peculiar, given that they always are asking us to put forth a good image as members. What is most peculiar though is the inference that this lack of financial forthrightness is somehow sacred. Can't they see that this would take one of the critic's strong arguments off the table by doing an annual report? Nothing fancy, just the same simple report that other Churches put out.

I suppose that this can happen. But the critic will toothpick his or her way through it looking for holes where holes may not exist. However, I see nothing wrong with the principal. Maybe the lord wants to keep it underwraps for the time being. But I am sure that everything is on the up and up. The books are opened to those who the law says they should be opened to.

just a quick question: What is your personal opinion on the churches that have completely open books and are willing to share them?

[_ajax18]

I think a lot of members would either be upset or take on a different attitude about tithing if they knew how much salary and expenses high ranking Church authorities were pulling. 300k a piece for the big 15? I know it changed my opinion when I found strong speculation that this was the case. It certainly made me feel a lot different than when I brought into their line that they had become so wealthy in their past lives that they no longer needed a salary.

Some members probably wouldn't care, but I speculate that a lot of them would. Books such as "The Great Apostasy," are full of criticism of other church's for bilking the people for money. I'd say that this is probably what bothers me the most about the Church, even more than the anti masturbation stand.

The Church has something to hide, but they may not be able to do so. If people want to know bad enough, they can follow how they live, how their families live and get a pretty good idea.

[_asbestosman]

I think a lot of members would either be upset or take on a different attitude about tithing if they knew how much salary and expenses high ranking Church authorities were pulling. 300k a piece for the big 15? I know it changed my opinion when I found strong speculation that this was the case. It certainly made me feel a lot different than when I brought into their line that they had become so wealthy in their past lives that they no longer needed a salary.

But if they did get $300K, when would they have time to spend it?

[_Mister Scratch]

I think a lot of members would either be upset or take on a different attitude about tithing if they knew how much salary and expenses high ranking Church authorities were pulling. 300k a piece for the big 15? I know it changed my opinion when I found strong speculation that this was the case. It certainly made me feel a lot different than when I brought into their line that they had become so wealthy in their past lives that they no longer needed a salary.

But if they did get $300K, when would they have time to spend it?

An excellent point, which naturally leads to the question, "Why are they being given this much money in the first place?"

[_maklelan]

I think a lot of members would either be upset or take on a different attitude about tithing if they knew how much salary and expenses high ranking Church authorities were pulling. 300k a piece for the big 15? I know it changed my opinion when I found strong speculation that this was the case. It certainly made me feel a lot different than when I brought into their line that they had become so wealthy in their past lives that they no longer needed a salary.

But if they did get $300K, when would they have time to spend it?

An excellent point, which naturally leads to the question, "Why are they being given this much money in the first place?"

When pure speculation leads to such questions it makes me wonder about your real concerns. Whether it's strong or weak, it's still pure speculation, and cannot lead to a "why are," question, but more honestly, "why would?" Asbestosman asked the question properly, but you word yours as if the question has been decided, which it appears to have been. The actual stipend is about a tenth of that, and they are very strict about the things on which they can spend those sacred funds.

[_Mister Scratch]

I think a lot of members would either be upset or take on a different attitude about tithing if they knew how much salary and expenses high ranking Church authorities were pulling. 300k a piece for the big 15? I know it changed my opinion when I found strong speculation that this was the case. It certainly made me feel a lot different than when I brought into their line that they had become so wealthy in their past lives that they no longer needed a salary.

But if they did get $300K, when would they have time to spend it?

An excellent point, which naturally leads to the question, "Why are they being given this much money in the first place?"

When pure speculation leads to such questions it makes me wonder about your real concerns. Whether it's strong or weak, it's still pure speculation, and cannot lead to a "why are," question, but more honestly, "why would?" Asbestosman asked the question properly, but you word yours as if the question has been decided, which it appears to have been. The actual stipend is about a tenth of that, and they are very strict about the things on which they can spend those sacred funds.

Wait a sec... You've seen actual, real data on this? How do you know that the men at the top of the hierarchy are only receiving $30,000? The reports I've read from various sources suggest that the amount is well over 100k for Seventies, and over half a million dollars for Apostles. This is all on top of the reported "unlimited" credit card, which one of the GAs admitted he was unhappy to give up. There is also an intriguing passage in The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power in which Quinn goes through the estate of (I believe) Joseph Fielding Smith, who had amassed a fortune of somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000,000.

To be honest, Mak, I am confused as to where you are getting your information. Your post sounds very much like the materials of a faith-promoting rumor, in my opinion. Sadly, many TBMs are misled to believe that the GAs live these sorts of pauper's lives, with very minimal compensation, and that simply isn't true.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Sadly, many TBMs are misled to believe that the GAs live these sorts of pauper's lives, with very minimal compensation, and that simply isn't true.

The tailored suits alone probably go beyond $30,000 a year. I doubt any of the top 15 buy off the rack at JC Penney.

[_twinkie]

OOoh this is something that bothers me, too. Before I became a member, they told us there was NO paid ministry- something that my DH and I felt strongly about. Then we found out we were lied to. Of course they said tried to make out like it was an honest mistake.

Didn't Jesus himself say that a rich man could not get into the kingdom of heaven? It would be easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye.

[_Jason Bourne]

Until any of you have more reliable about what GAs make your speculation is fruitless and your indignant attitude about the alleged high amounts is rather silly. None of you know. I don't either. Now, I will readily agree that that is rather sad andd that the finances ought to be open.

As an aside I will share a personal story. I had a chance to become friends with a 70 a number of years ago. He is a wonderful man. He had been an attorney at a rather modest law firm before he was called. I asked him what he missed about his fomer life. Among a few things he said "My income." He had a large family, was still fairly young and he said his income had dropped substantially. He also was allowed to use has Monday off to do some freelance law work on the side to supplement his income.

My guess is that 70's make aroung 100k, and the twelve maybe 200k plus.

But I do not know, nor do any of you.

[_maklelan]

Wait a sec... You've seen actual, real data on this? How do you know that the men at the top of the hierarchy are only receiving $30,000? The reports I've read from various sources suggest that the amount is well over 100k for Seventies, and over half a million dollars for Apostles.

Just what do you mean when you say "report"? Do you mean a legitimate investigation done by a professional, or are you just trying to make some person's weekend pseudo-sleuthing sound respectable? Please provide a reference to one of these "reports."

This is all on top of the reported "unlimited" credit card, which one of the GAs admitted he was unhappy to give up.

What do you call an expense account that links to an organization with vast resources? Let's call it an "unlimited credit card" so it will sound unique and shifty. Make sure not to make it clear that it's exactly the same as any other large corporation's expense account.

There is also an intriguing passage in The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power in which Quinn goes through the estate of (I believe) Joseph Fielding Smith, who had amassed a fortune of somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000,000.

Is it Joseph Fielding Smith or is it someone else?

To be honest, Mak, I am confused as to where you are getting your information. Your post sounds very much like the materials of a faith-promoting rumor, in my opinion.

And why does something faith-promoting always get dismissed as false on this site? Perhaps you guys subscribe to some assumptions and biases of your own. It is something to take into consideration.

I guess no one else was paying attention when I covered this for Vegas many weeks ago. I served as financial secretary for almost a year on my mission because my president evidently felt he needed to groom me for financial leadership in the church after I had started my career. He ran the tithing for the church for 7 years and ran the welfare system for 9. When we would travel he would train me regarding the finances of the church (then Vegas accused me of having sex with my mission president). He told me why inappropriately administering the church's funds is a quick ticket to excommunication (and now Vegas proudly wears my statement about that on his sig line as if it embarrasses me or the church), why GA's don't receive a whole lot of money, what they do and do not do with the money they do receive, and what they could and could not get reimbursed for.

Sadly, many TBMs are misled to believe that the GAs live these sorts of pauper's lives, with very minimal compensation, and that simply isn't true.

Sadly, many people are also led to believe otherwise by pure and weak speculation by people who claim to have "seen reports." The truth is, you haven't the first clue what is and isn't true, and you won't believe someone who's actually been a part of it because you'd much rather believe all the speculation that makes the church look silly.