Transparency in Church Finances

[_maklelan]

I am not sure what this means. How does one "supervise tithing for the entire Church"? Also, since there is some division (so far as I know) between the U.S. Church and the Church elsewhere in the world, does this mean that he "supervised" tithing for the whole world? Does "supervise" mean that he merely logged in all the tithing? Or did he see how it was spent? I guess the bottom line is that "supervise" seems a rather vague term.

It was his job to make sure that Salt Lake administered the incoming and outgoing funds properly. When they get up in general conference and say everything has been run according to proper procedure and revelation, that's what he oversaw.

Again, does "oversaw the administration" mean that he knew how it was being spent? Also, does this mean he told you how much the Brethren make?

Yes and yes, in ballpark figures. It's not always the same.

This shows that he is well-connected, and on a first-name basis with some of the FP, but beyond that, I don't see what this proves, I'm afraid.

He's close enough with all of them to know the kinds of details you're speculating about.

Again, what does this mean? What do you mean by the phrase "how things work[...] in the Church"?

It means the traditions, the unwritten rules and the written rules regarding the financial system.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Church really, really hates anyone who tampers with the money. I totally believe you on this. (In fact, this is one of the few things that merits excommunication, according to the CHI).

It has nothing to do with keeping a tight grip on their stash, as many will insist. The church takes incredibly seriously the sacredness of tithing. If anything surprised me about the finances it was how strict they were about spending tithing.

Which is what? Please elaborate.

I don't have the list anymore, but it is pretty consistent with what missionaries are and are not allowed to do with their funds. Being an apostle is actually a lot like being a missionary. Apostles may not be alone with a member of the opposite sex (except their families, of course). They have to have someone around, just like a missionary.

Please explain. I would be very interested in learning about this system.

It's been a long time (so the details are fuzzy), and I also draw the line here. Say what you will, but I'm not going to share information like this with this crowd.

I would love to know. I do not have this kind of "insider" knowledge that you appear to have. All I am able to rely upon is the sort of information I've posted above. Perhaps you can share some more that will help quell my doubts about the totally ethical way in which Church funds are handled?

For one thing, many GAs live the law of consecration. Paying huge salaries to people who live the law of consecration is kinda stupid. Usually people criticize the church for making their authorities give up their money, but this crowd seems to be criticial for the opposite reason.

Because I have never been given an adequate explanation from the TBMs. Your is the best I have ever heard, and so far all it amounts to is an, "I have insider knowledge, so just trust me" sort of assertion. Regardless, I would appreciate hearing more of the details.

It is a "trust me" assertion, and I know most people think I'm just making it up, but it is my experience in the church. I have never seen any information that lends any credence to the arguments about huge salaries, so I'm gonna stick with what I have been told by someone that I believe knows what they are talking about. That reminds me I need to visit my mission president some time soon.

[_asbestosman]

I was curious then, and curious now, what this has to do with anything?

ANY corporation, in fact probably anyone, views messing with funds in a serious nature.

I just don't know what your point is here, since it's a given.

I think the implication here is that therefore the General Authorities don't mess with funds either and wouldn't feel good squandering it on themselves for fancy vacations, expensive cars, etc.

[_Who Knows]

I was curious then, and curious now, what this has to do with anything?

ANY corporation, in fact probably anyone, views messing with funds in a serious nature.

I just don't know what your point is here, since it's a given.

I think the implication here is that therefore the General Authorities don't mess with funds either and wouldn't feel good squandering it on themselves for fancy vacations, expensive cars, etc.

umm, that doesn't follow.

I work at a company in the finance group. If i screwed around with the company's $$, i'd be fired.

However, the company pays me a salary, and when i travel, i have expenses paid for. The company couldn't care less with what i do with my money. Same goes for travel expenses - as long as they're within policy.

[_asbestosman]

For one thing, many GAs live the law of consecration. Paying huge salaries to people who live the law of consecration is kinda stupid. Usually people criticize the church for making their authorities give up their money, but this crowd seems to be criticial for the opposite reason.

I'd be happy to give up my money and live the law of consecration if I had a guarantee of health care for me and my family, a decent home (doesn't have to be big), healthy food (doesn't have to be gourmet), and any work expenses. I'll even be happy to have $0 income in addition to all those things. Just tell me where to sign up.

[_asbestosman]

umm, that doesn't follow.

I know. I was just commenting one how Maklelan's wording initially struck me.

[_Who Knows]

For one thing, many GAs live the law of consecration. Paying huge salaries to people who live the law of consecration is kinda stupid. Usually people criticize the church for making their authorities give up their money, but this crowd seems to be criticial for the opposite reason.

I'd be happy to give up my money and live the law of consecration if I had a guarantee of health care for me and my family, a decent home (doesn't have to be big), healthy food (doesn't have to be gourmet), and any work expenses. I'll even be happy to have $0 income in addition to all those things. Just tell me where to sign up.

Throw in some trips to exotic locations, a sweet ride, and some book deals, and you can sign me up as well.

edit - oh, and BYU football box seat tickets.

[_maklelan]

I was curious then, and curious now, what this has to do with anything?

ANY corporation, in fact probably anyone, views messing with funds in a serious nature.

I just don't know what your point is here, since it's a given.

I think the implication here is that therefore the General Authorities don't mess with funds either and wouldn't feel good squandering it on themselves for fancy vacations, expensive cars, etc.

umm, that doesn't follow.

I work at a company in the finance group. If i screwed around with the company's $$, i'd be fired.

However, the company pays me a salary, and when i travel, i have expenses paid for. The company couldn't care less with what i do with my money. Same goes for travel expenses - as long as they're within policy.

I apologize for including that bit. It wasn't very clear, but like I said, they take misappropriation of funds very seriously because they have an understanding that tithing is sacred and should not be spent needlessly. Knowing that, it is inconsistent to give anyone in the church a stipend that far exceeds what a General authority would ever have time to spend. Since they don't need that much money, and the money would thus go into investments or needless spending, they would violate their own guidelines about expenditure if they payed them that much money. The connection was in my head but I didn't communicate it properly. I've got about a hundred pages of reading I'm going through right now and I'm trying to take as little time as possible to post.

[_Who Knows]

Mak - can you answer my question about whether you've viewed the church's financial statements?

[_maklelan]

Throw in some trips to exotic locations,

Like Elder Holland working non-stop in Chile for two years? Yeah, sign me up!

a sweet ride, and some book deals,

They're assigned to write books. It's the first thing they do when they're called to be an apostle. They don't make much money off of them, and all the ones I'm aware of have donated that money.

edit - oh, and BYU football box seat tickets.

Yeah, that's about a $30 value.

[_maklelan]

Mak - can you answer my question about whether you've viewed the church's financial statements?

Of course I haven't. I've been told about them from someone who managed them, though. If you really require that then you have no reason at all to believe anything being "speculated" from your end of the argument.