DiscussMormonism.com

I would just like to ask a question before answering our dear friend who is Catholic.

In the Book of Moses we can read a dialog between Moses and God, God tells Moses, "The worlds I have created are without number to man, but they are numbered unto me because I know them for they are mine."

Let me ask you a question; If we were to ask God to measure the infinitesimally emptyness of space and give us an answer as to how far it was across the whole of space; could God give us an answer? Of course not! God cannot measure or weigh the infinite any more than we can. But how is it then that God claims to Moses that he can number the worlds, when he says, "But they are numbered unto me."

Is that just God's way of leting us know that there was indeed a first world?

grampa75

This is like asking, "Did Yoda really mean it when he said, 'Away with your weapon! I mean you no harm!'"

Who can know the motives or thoughts of a fictitious character?

Some Schmo wrote:This is like asking, "Did Yoda really mean it when he said, 'Away with your weapon! I mean you no harm!'"

Who can know the motives or thoughts of a fictitious character?

I was thinking that an infinite being can comprehend an infinite number of worlds. Mormonism posits a finite God, so grampa's question presupposes that LDS theology is correct in its definition of God.

So, yeah, it's like trying to describe a fictional character's thoughts.

One other thing: aren't Mormons the only people who believe that God created other worlds?

Some Schmo wrote:This is like asking, "Did Yoda really mean it when he said, 'Away with your weapon! I mean you no harm!'"

Who can know the motives or thoughts of a fictitious character?

Yay! We have another "Star Wars" nerd on the board!

;)

grampa75 wrote:If we were to ask God to measure the infinitesimally emptyness of space

I think you mean "infinite emptyness of space". Infinitesimally empty would mean that it is virtually full with maybe room for a sheet of paper at most.

God cannot measure or weigh the infinite any more than we can.

Lucky for us we do have mathematical models for make some sense of the infinite. Transfinite algebra has been developed by such great men as Greg Cantor and David Hilbert.

But how is it then that God claims to Moses that he can number the worlds, when he says, "But they are numbered unto me."

Is that just God's way of leting us know that there was indeed a first world?

Not necessarily. It might mean that there are aleph1 worlds (uncountable infinity), but that God can comprehend uncountable infinity. It could also be that there are aleph0 worlds (countable infinity) and that the reason they are not numbered unto man is that we do not live long enough or have enough resources to discover, study, or comprehend so many worlds. Personally I think there are aleph0 worlds. I also think it possible that there was never a first one just as there is no smallest positive rational number.

On infinity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_0

liz3564 wrote:

Some Schmo wrote:This is like asking, "Did Yoda really mean it when he said, 'Away with your weapon! I mean you no harm!'"

Who can know the motives or thoughts of a fictitious character?

Yay! We have another "Star Wars" nerd on the board!

;)

I figured I'd go for something more accessible than Star Trek this time.

:)

Runtu wrote: I was thinking that an infinite being can comprehend an infinite number of worlds. Mormonism posits a finite God, so grampa's question presupposes that LDS theology is correct in its definition of God.

So, yeah, it's like trying to describe a fictional character's thoughts.

You have to suspend logic and accept a whole multitude of assumptions to make any religion work. I understood where he was coming from. I just figured I'd point out the obvious. I always cringe when people talk about fiction like it's fact, whether it's speculative talk or not.

Some Schmo wrote:

Runtu wrote: I was thinking that an infinite being can comprehend an infinite number of worlds. Mormonism posits a finite God, so grampa's question presupposes that LDS theology is correct in its definition of God.

So, yeah, it's like trying to describe a fictional character's thoughts.

You have to suspend logic and accept a whole multitude of assumptions to make any religion work. I understood where he was coming from. I just figured I'd point out the obvious. I always cringe when people talk about fiction like it's fact, whether it's speculative talk or not.

Reading grampa's posts, I realized that I just don't have any interest in these kinds of questions anymore. Maybe my conscience has become seared, or something.

Runtu wrote:

Some Schmo wrote:

Runtu wrote: I was thinking that an infinite being can comprehend an infinite number of worlds. Mormonism posits a finite God, so grampa's question presupposes that LDS theology is correct in its definition of God.

So, yeah, it's like trying to describe a fictional character's thoughts.

You have to suspend logic and accept a whole multitude of assumptions to make any religion work. I understood where he was coming from. I just figured I'd point out the obvious. I always cringe when people talk about fiction like it's fact, whether it's speculative talk or not.

Reading grampa's posts, I realized that I just don't have any interest in these kinds of questions anymore. Maybe my conscience has become seared, or something.

I think (based on what I've read of you posts) that your underlying assumptions have completely changed to the point that to engage grampa would be to argue from a completely different plane, and you realize there's no point. It's why I just don't post in these forums much anymore myself. What's the point?

I do, however, still find myself somewhat fascinated by all the mental gymnastics. It never fails to amaze me (as does the subject of human denial in general). I have to take it in small doses though.

asbestosman wrote:

grampa75 wrote:If we were to ask God to measure the infinitesimally emptyness of space

I think you mean "infinite emptyness of space". Infinitesimally empty would mean that it is virtually full with maybe room for a sheet of paper at most.

God cannot measure or weigh the infinite any more than we can.

Lucky for us we do have mathematical models for make some sense of the infinite. Transfinite algebra has been developed by such great men as Greg Cantor and David Hilbert.

But how is it then that God claims to Moses that he can number the worlds, when he says, "But they are numbered unto me."

Is that just God's way of leting us know that there was indeed a first world?

Not necessarily. It might mean that there are aleph1 worlds (uncountable infinity), but that God can comprehend uncountable infinity. It could also be that there are aleph0 worlds (countable infinity) and that the reason they are not numbered unto man is that we do not live long enough or have enough resources to discover, study, or comprehend so many worlds. Personally I think there are aleph0 worlds. I also think it possible that there was never a first one just as there is no smallest positive rational number.

On infinity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_0

I"m sorry to say that I disagree even though that does not make my statement correct in your eyes, only in mine.

First I know factually that space has no end to it. Because if it did have an end in our finite way of philosophizing we would have to admit that there would also have to be an end to the end. I believe however that all space is full in comparising to space itself, so that word infinitesimally would be more correct than to use the term infinite.

Man has reached out in space (with telecopes of course) so far that it would take man 2 billion years traveling at 186,000 miles per second to reach it and yet we still would not have covered in comparison then one drop of water in the Atlantic Ocean. But as far as we can see, there are galaxies after galaxies. However, if you are only looking at the empty space between the galaxies then your premise would still not be correct because of all the debree from Super Novae that is left after each and every sun caves in on itself and explodes. This creates what is known as Pulsars. But Pulsars are only 1/1000th times the size of the sun that created it.

But my poor brain is traveling at the speed of light and I may be all wet in most of my assumptions. The thing we need to do is to ask God if what we have discovered is true.

grampa75