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[Rikiti]

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[_gramps]

Hi Ezias,

Interesting idea. I think most people can't get around the idea that "drugs" are bad; all "drugs." But, I agree that each have different properties and should be considered individually. And that the church has never been specific on the issue of whether certain substances would be ok if they were not illegal.

I hope some people here would like to discuss this issue, but, alas.....

About Holland. Actually, most drugs there are still technically illegal, including marijuana. However, they have been "decriminalized" and one will not be prosecuted for having small personal amounts of whatever. This does not go for some of the hard drugs, where even small amounts will at least get you a visit to the police station.

I hope you can get some participation on this thread. I am looking forward to it.

[_Fortigurn]

One theory by Harvard professor Lester Grinspoon is that psychedelic drugs allow human consiousness to grasp a reality that is always there but beyond our normal physical senses.

I'll be convinced of this when I see scientists abandoning the laboratory for psychedelic drug trips. There's certainly a huge 'reality out there' which is 'beyond our normal physical senses' (it starts with all the invisible forces, such as gravity), but I don't see scientists trying to find out about it by doping themselves up. What's a better way to discover how the solar system works, pop a pill or invent the telescope?

[Rikiti]

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[Rikiti]

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[_Fortigurn]

Ah, but the beauty of psychedelic substances is that they CAN and ARE being used in labratories.

Not in the way I described, which was my point. I thought we were talking about grasping 'a reality that is always there but beyond our normal physical senses'. What is this reality? In what way is it different to the 'reality' which is within our normal physical senses? How do we know of this 'reality'? Is it the real reality?

There are links in that wikipedia article that refer to some, such as the John Hopkins Research Project.

That is not what I was talking about. That's certainly not 'abandoning the laboratory', for a start. It's a study of human consciousness.

Unlike completely random mystical experiences, such as NDE's...

NDEs are not 'completely random mystical experiences'. The very fact that they follow what appears to be practically a standard script, right across cultures, prove otherwise.

Scientific research in this area is still in it's infancy, mostly because of the taboo associated with such substances.

Where's a smiley which expresses laughing uncontrollably on having read a statement which is dramatically and obviously untrue? Sorry, but what taboo? That's like scientists have problems studying radiation because of the taboo regarding uranium.

As far as what you say about gravity, yes, that is an invisable force, but it can be sensed with our normal consciousness.

If you mean we can sense our weight, you're correct. But no, we cannot tangibly assess gravity, or even detect it as a force. We can only detect its presence and force indirectly, by observation of its effect on other entities. But ok, let's take quantum physics, since you brought it up. What's the best way to find out what's at the quantum level, smash particles together in an accelerator, or take some LSD?

There are many ideas about the structure of the universe in quantum physics that are very similar to what some have "realized" during drug trips.

Really? Do give us a list. A list of quantum physics experts who recognise that drug trips are a much faster way of getting to the truth of quantum physics than the dumb boring old way of using maths, science, and physical observation of our universe, would also be useful. I'm sure that they'd be very happy if they could bypass three years of painstaking and expensive research with a few hours a week flying high as a kite.

Perhaps, in an altered mental state, the mind has an ability to sense and percieve what science is just starting to scratch the surface of.

Perhaps. I'll believe it when I see it. What I see so far is people taking drugs and altering both their perceptions and their state of consciousness. They're not discovering any new data sources, they're simply rearranging the way their brains receive and interpret that data.

As far as inventing the telescope is concerened, that is an entirely different science.

No it's not. You see, the telescope actually enhances our natural physical senses, so that we can detect the reality which is beyond them (that's not a tiny light in the sky, that's a huge great planet made of rock). The microscope enhances our physical senses, so that we can detect the reality which is beyond them (that spoon isn't clean, it's covered in bacteria). Both telescopes and microscopes have proven themselves extraordinarily useful in this way. Which pill can you give me which provides me with anything comparable? If I take LSD, can I see what's on Pluto? Will I have x-ray vision? Will I be even remotely coherent?

It has it's place in science. The study of consciousness has it's place in science as well.

It seems you're changing the goal posts. I thought we were talking about studying a 'reality always there but beyond our normal physical senses'. The study of consciousness is an entirely different topic.

[Rikiti]

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[_Mister Scratch]

A great and interesting thread. To my mind, the WoW really has little or nothing to do with actual foods / beverages / plants / drugs. The things singled out by the Brethren as being 'bad' have been shown time and again to have legitimate uses in a variety of contexts. The real point of the WoW is that it functions as a sort of "badge" of obedience. It's not so much that the Word of Wisdom really and truly benefits anybody's health, per se, it's that it helps prove how willing you are to follow the Brethren's dictates. The WoW could ban alcohol, psychedelic mushrooms, fried chicken, Juicy Fruit gum, and seedless watermelon, and the reasons for the banning would all be beside the point. The real point is obedience, plain and simple.

[Rikiti]

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[_Mister Scratch]

A great and interesting thread. To my mind, the WoW really has little or nothing to do with actual foods / beverages / plants / drugs. The things singled out by the Brethren as being 'bad' have been shown time and again to have legitimate uses in a variety of contexts. The real point of the WoW is that it functions as a sort of "badge" of obedience. It's not so much that the Word of Wisdom really and truly benefits anybody's health, per se, it's that it helps prove how willing you are to follow the Brethren's dictates. The WoW could ban alcohol, psychedelic mushrooms, fried chicken, Juicy Fruit gum, and seedless watermelon, and the reasons for the banning would all be beside the point. The real point is obedience, plain and simple.

I get what you are saying about obedience. Kind of like the forbidden fruit in the garden of eden (which many think ties to entheogens, by the way). Partaking of the forbidden fruit was a good thing, because it opened their eyes, but it was bad only because God said don't do it.

Or like Abraham sacrificing his only son. Human sacrifice in general is a bad thing, but God was testing Abraham's obedience.

The thing is though, have the bretheren said it is a sin to use entheogens? Where is that documented? In the spirit of the WoW it indicates that no drug, regardless of which one, should be abused. The letter of it is somewhat ambigous though. In fact, it doesn't even say that alchohol is bad, only that strong drinks (liqours, wines) are bad.

You are right, which is, again, why I feel that it is best to categorize the WoW as a "badge" of obedience. There isn't really any legit logic (or even real clarity, as you point out) underlying the WoW. It's really more a means for TBMs to demonstrate how willing they are to obey.

D&C 89: 17
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

Do you know what kind of drink barley is used for? Ale! What is beer made of? Other grain! (If this is not what it is refering to prove me wrong) It has a small content of alchohol compared to strong drinks. Joseph Smith drank beer himself, as is recorded in his diary printed in The Papers of Joseph Smith. Also, wine was looked at differently in WoW times, it being used in the sacrament, etc.

The WoW has evolved from that to what it is interpereted as meaning today. Even accross Mormon culture it is still ambigous today. Some say caffine is bad, and therefore no coke or pepsi. Others seemingly keep coke and pepsi in business with as much of it as they drink (or stock they own;).

Good points. Unless I am mistaken, the WoW as we know it today is a result of BY's battle with the federal government. He wanted to "stick it" to producers and distributors of items like tobacco and coffee, and so the WoW ban on them became a sort of economic embargo. It really has nothing to do with either spirituality or health. It is, as I've said, a symbol of solidarity and obedience.

The opinions of what the word of wisdom really means today I'm sure is not unanimous with the brethren either. If the bretheren have not said specifically that taking a certain substance is a sin, and have not put it forth as the word of the Lord, then are we not suppose to only excersise our own judgement, like the caffine in coke situation?

I think it's more of a "If you have any doubts, then don't do it!" sort of thing.

I think it is almost comical how much spiritual importance is placed on the WoW. Some youth think breaking the WoW is a worse offense than immorality!

There have been some comments by the bretheren about LSD, but it was in the context of pure abuse, listed along with heroine, cocaine, etc. The bretheren have also said not to abuse prescription or over the counter drugs, but that does not mean they should not be used at all for what they are intended. In fact, cocaine is a topical anesthetic, my doctor has used it on an open wound I had at one time (no, it was not novocain) It seems that there are constructive uses for psychedelics. Are members of the church forbidden to use them anyway?

Not "officially," but I would say, Yes, members are forbidden from using psychedelics.