More on Bible "inerrancy"

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

More on Bible "inerrancy"

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Good Friday, All: Pasted below, i think, is more than food-for-thought. It is information needed to put into perspective Bible teachings, and anciet traditions, as considered in today's world. It is a liitle lengthy :-) How can that be?? Non-the-less, here is Spong on the topic:

This week I want to press biblical literalism to its strangest and most destructive boundaries. My purpose is not to ridicule the convictions of sincere but uninformed Christians. I do it because I can no longer stand by in silence while watching this ancient book be misquoted, misapplied and misused in the service of human prejudice. The current conflict in my own church in which homophobic bishops from the Third World quote the Bible to condemn homosexuality, about which they know less than nothing, is illustrative of the problem. To this expression of ignorance weak-kneed prelates like the Archbishop of Canterbury, wring their hands and accept this bigotry as a legitimate expression of Christianity, seeking to keep the Church unified in ignorance and prejudice. I presume that in another era this Archbishop of Canterbury would have tried to build Church unity by coddling slave holders rather than forcing them to deal with their killing racism. The Bible cannot be used with credibility to support a life-destroying homophobia and I do not care how upset that makes anyone. That attitude is completely at odds with the Jesus of John's gospel whose stated purpose was to bring abundant life to all, yes to "all," not to "some."

The late Senator Daniel Moynihan of New York once said, "Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions. No one, however, is entitled to his or her own facts!" Here are some biblical facts that are rather inconvenient to those who try to turn the Bible into being the literal and inerrant word of God.

Fact number one: If Abraham lived at all, it was around the year 1850 BCE, while Moses lived around 1250 BCE. Yet the earliest part of the Old Testament was written in the middle of the 10th century BCE. This means that everything we know about Abraham has come to us by way of 900 years of oral retelling and everything we know about Moses passed through some 300 years of oral transmission before either of their stories was written down. The literalists are thus forced to assume that, in those 900 years in Abraham's case or 300 years in the case of Moses, every detail was passed on accurately with no additions, deletions or exaggerations. Such an assumption is patently ridiculous.

Fact number two: The life of the Jesus of history was lived, according to our best efforts at reconstruction, between 4 BCE and 30 CE. However, no gospel was written earlier than 70 CE or later than 100 CE. So no gospel is an eye witness account. Everything we know about Jesus was passed on orally for 40 to 70 years or through two to four generations before the gospels were written. When that story did get written it was cast as an interpretation of Jesus, based on Jewish messianic expectations. Narrative details were obviously lifted out of the Jewish sacred story about such heroes as Moses and Elijah and then retold as if they were events in Jesus' life. When we examine the most memorable parts of the gospel tradition, such as the accounts of Jesus' birth and death, we discover that both were crafted not from eyewitness memory but from older Hebrew narratives. Matthew's story of the star in the east, and the wise men who followed it, was built on Isaiah 60. The story of the crucifixion was organized around Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. Neither account makes any pretext of being recorded history, but that is the way in which generations of biblically illiterate people were destined to read them. Literalists are never quite able to explain how the traumatic words from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" recorded in the first two gospels to be written, evolved over the years into the peaceful: "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit" in Luke or into the triumphal acclaim: "It is finished" in John. The secret is that none of the words from the cross are literal. All are interpretive creations.

Fact number three: The gospels were originally written in Greek, not Aramaic the language, which Jesus spoke. So before the literalist reads the first word attributed to Jesus in the first gospel to be written, it has already gone through a translation. Has there ever been a perfect translation? Of course not! Linguistics is an inexact science. Two expert translators will never agree on the exact meaning of even a single spoken or written line. When lecturing through a translator in Finland I once referred to those who are "gay and straight." My translator rendered those two words "happy" and "a ruler." Translations are a risky business! Therefore, literalists must believe the unbelievable of a perfect translation to sustain their convictions. That is simply not a possibility for those who understand the vagaries of human life.

Fact number four: In the original texts of the gospels, there were no capital letters, no paragraphs, no punctuation and no space between words. The gospels were originally written in line after line of letters. The separations between words, the forming of paragraphs and the application of punctuation in our Bibles today were all imposed on the texts by later interpreters using their tools of grammar. If the Bible is the inerrant "Word of God," all the interpreting grammarians had to be inerrant also. The credibility of literalism collapses at this realization.

Fact number five: The gospels were hand-copied until the time of the development of the printing press in the 15th century. Thus inerrancy requires the belief that no copier ever made a mistake in copying the text, ever inserted a clarifying phrase or deleted something that cast doubt on another part of the story. Today New Testament scholars debate the origins of some obvious later additions to the gospels. For example, there are three different endings to Mark's gospel, two of which appear to be later additions. No one quite knows where the story of the woman taken in the act of adultery really belongs. John's gospel seems to have an appendix that was added later. There is no way to check these realities since the oldest copy of a complete gospel that we have dates only from the 6th century. A scroll or codex of one of the gospels might last 10-15 years before a new hand written copy had to be made. A sixth century manuscript would be something like the fortieth copy of the original texts. That is as close as we can get to the originals. Those who believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God have also got to believe in the inerrancy of all the scribes who copied each book by hand through at least forty versions.

Add these facts up and the claims of biblical inerrancy become little more than claims for religious magic that somehow preserved inerrant oral transmissions, inerrant gospel writers, inerrant translators, inerrant grammarians and inerrant copyists. Yet on these claims, which are nothing short of absurd, the literal "Word of God" has been used to justify an anti-Semitism that led to the Holocaust; the excommunication of some heretics and the burning of others at the stake, religious torture and the Inquisition; the cruelty of slavery and segregation, the violation of the scientific enterprise whether it was by condemning Galileo or compromising Darwin; and the diminishing of women as less than human, which today leads to displays of rude behavior on the part of some bishops and archbishops who refuse to receive communion with another bishop, even a presiding bishop, who is a woman. Finally, there the continuing virulent homophobia in our time that threatens to tear apart any church that finally moves beyond this killing prejudice.

If the claim of the inerrancy of scripture is the mark of those who call themselves fundamentalists, we should firmly say to these fearful, to the point of being pathetic, believers: "That attitude toward the Bible is not a viable possibility for the Christian Church in the 21st century and we will no longer respect that claim as containing any truth." Fundamentalism has turned the Bible into a "golden calf" and that idol has no more life in it than any other humanly constructed idol, and like all idols is the source of great violence.

The time has come to say, "Enough! In God's name, enough!" We will no longer be intimidated by pious but uninformed biblical claims. Fundamentalists, in both their Catholic and Protestant forms, are not entitled to their own facts! Their view of the Bible is not only dead, but it should be dead. It cannot ever be revived. The future of Christianity does not lie in that direction. The Christian Church must move out of bibliolatry and into a living faith.
(Bold added)


Thughts?? Warm regards, Roger
_Fortigurn
_Emeritus
Posts: 918
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by _Fortigurn »

My initial thoughts are that a number of his alleged 'facts' are simply not facts. But I expect nothing less than hardline absolute dogmatism from Spong. He's really no different to the Fundamentalists he hates, he's simply an extremist on the opposite pole.
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Post by _Some Schmo »

Fortigurn wrote:My initial thoughts are that a number of his alleged 'facts' are simply not facts.


I find of couple of the claims he makes at least questionable, but there is great sense to the basic point he's trying to make. What facts do you dispute here?
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Fortigurn
_Emeritus
Posts: 918
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by _Fortigurn »

Some Schmo wrote:I find of couple of the claims he makes at least questionable, but there is great sense to the basic point he's trying to make. What facts do you dispute here?


These:

Yet the earliest part of the Old Testament was written in the middle of the 10th century BCE.


However, no gospel was written earlier than 70 CE...


Therefore, literalists must believe the unbelievable of a perfect translation to sustain their convictions.


If the Bible is the inerrant "Word of God," all the interpreting grammarians had to be inerrant also.


Thus inerrancy requires the belief that no copier ever made a mistake in copying the text, ever inserted a clarifying phrase or deleted something that cast doubt on another part of the story.


A sixth century manuscript would be something like the fortieth copy of the original texts. That is as close as we can get to the originals.
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Fortigurn wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:I find of couple of the claims he makes at least questionable, but there is great sense to the basic point he's trying to make. What facts do you dispute here?
(Bold added in agreement.)

These:

Yet the earliest part of the Old Testament was written in the middle of the 10th century BCE.


However, no gospel was written earlier than 70 CE...


Therefore, literalists must believe the unbelievable of a perfect translation to sustain their convictions.


If the Bible is the inerrant "Word of God," all the interpreting grammarians had to be inerrant also.


Thus inerrancy requires the belief that no copier ever made a mistake in copying the text, ever inserted a clarifying phrase or deleted something that cast doubt on another part of the story.
(Bold added) I have heard many folks claim exactly that: "God's word" has been protected through the ages to remain in its pure, unadulterated form. Haven't you heard such claims? If so, are you agreeing or disagreeing with them?

A sixth century manuscript would be something like the fortieth copy of the original texts. That is as close as we can get to the originals.


OK... Now for your refutations... AND, your comment, please, on his last paragraph, which i bolded. Warm regards, Roger
_Fortigurn
_Emeritus
Posts: 918
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by _Fortigurn »

Roger Morrison wrote:I have heard many folks claim exactly that: "God's word" has been protected through the ages to remain in its pure, unadulterated form. Haven't you heard such claims? If so, are you agreeing or disagreeing with them?


* No, I have never heard anyone say that 'no copier ever made a mistake in copying the text, ever inserted a clarifying phrase or deleted something that cast doubt on another part of the story', and I doubt that many people say this

* Even if they did, it is completely untrue that holding inerrancy requires such a belief (I hold to inerrancy, and I don't hold to such a belief)

* A 6th century manuscript is not as close as we can get to the originals - quite apart from the fact that we have entire manuscripts of New Testament books as early as the 4th century AD, and of the Old Testament as early as 160BC, we also have thousands of New Testament fragments as early as 120 AD

* There is plenty of evidence that the oldest parts of the Pentateuch preceded the 10th century BC (yes it's long, and no I'm not going to apologise for that)

* He provides no evidence for the claim that the earliest accounts of Jesus' life were written no earlier than 70 AD, or that none of the gospels were eyewitness accounts (even if they were written after 70 AD, this would not preclude them from being eye witness accounts)

* He presumes that translation is such an extremely precise process that unless it is performed perfectly the sense and meaning of the original statement cannot be known, and that two expert translators 'will never agree on the exact meaning of even a single spoken or written line' (I learned Greek and Latin, I'm learning Chinese, and I've spent several years on a professional Bible translation list, and I can tell you that he would be simply laughed at if he made that statement there)

OK... Now for your refutations... AND, your comment, please, on his last paragraph, which I bolded.


My comment on his last paragraph is that whilst some of what he says about fundamentalists is true, some of it is grossly exaggerated, and some of it is downright false. But such tactics are par for the course when you're a demogogue. He has a part to play, and a script to follow, so I don't expect anything else. Indeed, I would almost be disappointed if he started becoming reasonable.
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Fortigurn, thanks for your response. Obviously you are well informed. It is good to consider both/all sides in any dispute. I appreciate yours. You say:
* No, I have never heard anyone say that 'no copier ever made a mistake in copying the text, ever inserted a clarifying phrase or deleted something that cast doubt on another part of the story', and I doubt that many people say this


Maybe i have been exposed--and continue to be--to a more ignorant element of the masses. "...not a jot or tittle, has ever been lost, or changed!" Still rings in my ears. Such absurdities do not bode well for your camp. Maybe less dogmatic today in your circles??

Something that does indicate a liberalizing of those on speaking rosters of travelling Evangelists, is that more have "Dr." behind their names than "Rev." I think that will lead to a more educated than indocrinated presentations. Better serving the public good...

I accept arguement over dating and time frames. How much those differences affect the intent of either side i personally don't think to be that important to the application of the spirit of Christianity. The "beam & mote" and "swallow a camel" things. Do you understand my thinking?

My comment on his last paragraph is that whilst some of what he says about fundamentalists is true, some of it is grossly exaggerated, and some of it is downright false. But such tactics are par for the course when you're a demogogue. He has a part to play, and a script to follow, so I don't expect anything else. Indeed, I would almost be disappointed if he started becoming reasonable.


I could say, "i would be pleased to see You "...becoming (more) reasonable." :-) Do you both not share a "testimony" of Jesus Christ? Are you both not Theists? As i read Spong, he wants to see humanity infuenced more by the "Two New Commandments". Don't you? (Surprised if you don't.)

Isn't the application of Jesus' teachings--the BIG picture--more important than its frame? Respectfully, warm regards, Roger
_Fortigurn
_Emeritus
Posts: 918
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by _Fortigurn »

Roger Morrison wrote:Fortigurn, thanks for your response. Obviously you are well informed. It is good to consider both/all sides in any dispute. I appreciate yours. You say:
* No, I have never heard anyone say that 'no copier ever made a mistake in copying the text, ever inserted a clarifying phrase or deleted something that cast doubt on another part of the story', and I doubt that many people say this


Maybe I have been exposed--and continue to be--to a more ignorant element of the masses. "...not a jot or tittle, has ever been lost, or changed!" Still rings in my ears. Such absurdities do not bode well for your camp. Maybe less dogmatic today in your circles??-


No, really, I don't care how fundamentalist the people you've been exposed to are, I have never, ever, ever heard anyone say that no single scribe ever made a single mistake at all. What I have heard is that despite the inevitable errors of individual scribes, the text was transmitted faithfully down through the ages, due to multiple redundancy of sources together with Divine intervention.

Something that does indicate a liberalizing of those on speaking rosters of travelling Evangelists, is that more have "Dr." behind their names than "Rev." I think that will lead to a more educated than indocrinated presentations. Better serving the public good...


They would be better off with 'Dr' as in 'MD' in front of their names. Seriously, travelling evangelists with 'Dr' in front of their names aren't necessarily worth listening to.

I accept arguement over dating and time frames. How much those differences affect the intent of either side I personally don't think to be that important to the application of the spirit of Christianity. The "beam & mote" and "swallow a camel" things. Do you understand my thinking?


I understand your thinking, but it's very different to Spong's thinking on those issues. First of all, he doesn't even understand those issues. That's a major problem. He needs to understand them before he can start to pontificate on them.

Do you both not share a "testimony" of Jesus Christ?


No we don't.

Are you both not Theists?


No we aren't.

As I read Spong, he wants to see humanity infuenced more by the "Two New Commandments". Don't you? (Surprised if you don't.)


As I read Spong, he wants to see Christianity influenced more by humanism than by anything else in this entire world, and the 'Two New Commandments' come a long second to that. I on the other hand want to see humanity influenced more by the character of God as manifested in the life of Christ. Spong has an issue with that, because he doesn't believe we actually have a valid description of the life of Christ.

Isn't the application of Jesus' teachings--the BIG picture--more important than its frame?


You can't separate the picture from the frame.
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Fortigurn, by your adamance aginst Spong, and your answers to my questions re what you might have in common with Spong, it suddenly dawned through my slow wit, that you are THE Christadelphian with whom i discussed Spong's teachings before...

I now understand your objections & your reluctance to see common ground. IMSCO, unfortunate.

During our last discussion i followed your links and learned things about your 'Church' that i found quite noble. OTH, there are things that "I" consider ignoble..."to each their own."

As the topic stands, it's seems obvious you resist the principles--inquirery, open-mindedness--that tend to social change, and human advancement--gender equality, sexual orientation--that bases preferrence of the future over that of the past. The principles that i embrace, as well the personal choices i expect in a "righteous" society...

I hope we don't disagree disagreeably. But move on better understanding ourselves, and each other. Warm regards, Roger
_Z
_Emeritus
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:24 pm

Post by _Z »

I'm not a Bible literalist by any means, but this argument is really pretty ridiculous. The point that gets me the most is this one:

Fact number two: The life of the Jesus of history was lived, according to our best efforts at reconstruction, between 4 BCE and 30 CE. However, no gospel was written earlier than 70 CE or later than 100 CE. So no gospel is an eye witness account. Everything we know about Jesus was passed on orally for 40 to 70 years or through two to four generations before the gospels were written. When that story did get written it was cast as an interpretation of Jesus, based on Jewish messianic expectations. Narrative details were obviously lifted out of the Jewish sacred story about such heroes as Moses and Elijah and then retold as if they were events in Jesus' life. When we examine the most memorable parts of the gospel tradition, such as the accounts of Jesus' birth and death, we discover that both were crafted not from eyewitness memory but from older Hebrew narratives. Matthew's story of the star in the east, and the wise men who followed it, was built on Isaiah 60. The story of the crucifixion was organized around Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. Neither account makes any pretext of being recorded history, but that is the way in which generations of biblically illiterate people were destined to read them. Literalists are never quite able to explain how the traumatic words from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" recorded in the first two gospels to be written, evolved over the years into the peaceful: "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit" in Luke or into the triumphal acclaim: "It is finished" in John. The secret is that none of the words from the cross are literal. All are interpretive creations.


He's arguing with literalists from the paradigm of a non-literalist. Whether the stories of Jesus's life were copied from old testament prophecies or simply fulfillment of those prophesies is entirely a matter of one's pre-existing opinions. What the author sees as evidence of copying, the beleiver sees as evidence of Christ's divinity. There's no independant way to verify which situation is actually happening.
And his use of the example of Christ's words on the cross is just ridiculous. A beleiver would simply say, "He said all of them and different writers chose to emphasize different things." He says no literalist has ever been able to explain the divergence there but I've never even heard anyone bring that up as a controversial point before. It proves nothing at all. Furthermore, some of the writers of the gospels actually were there when that event occured. John was definitely there and he wrote his gospel himself as I understand it. So where's the "2 to 4 generations" of oral history in that case? His statement, "Everything we know about Jesus was passed on orally for 40 to 70 years or through two to four generations before the gospels were written." is false.

But his assumption of old testament plagerism is really the crux of his argument. Because with all his talk of grammer and copy-errors the author is not really trying to prove that there are grammer and translation mistakes in the Bible but that there are significant doctrinal mistakes that would allow him to discount scriptures about homosexuality and other things that don't fit into his cultural perspective.

I'm not saying his perspective is wrong, but it can't be justified using his weak and sometimes apriori arguments.
Post Reply