Evidence from Biblical scholars indicate Abraham is fiction

[_nomi]

So......what now? if someone comes up with evidence that the Bible is not true, are you going to belive it? So when someone says, i have evidence that September 11 was not a terrorist attack, you would belive it..You Americans crack me up. You are really something. You are always looking for this and that, trying to prove that this is true and this is not. Grow Up and stop proving the world right.

[_Quantumwave]

So......what now? if someone comes up with evidence that the Bible is not true, are you going to belive it? So when someone says, I have evidence that September 11 was not a terrorist attack, you would belive it..You Americans crack me up. You are really something. You are always looking for this and that, trying to prove that this is true and this is not. Grow Up and stop proving the world right.

Hi nomi,

You raise some questions that seem to suggest an undertow current of something you are not saying.

So......what now? if someone comes up with evidence that the Bible is not true, are you going to belive it?

This is like asking: So......what now? if someone comes up with evidence that the earth is not flat, are you going to believe it?

So when someone says, I have evidence that September 11 was not a terrorist attack, you would belive it

Some Muslims have made that statement, and no one I have talked with believes it.

You Americans crack me up. You are really something. You are always looking for this and that, trying to prove that this is true and this is not. Grow Up and stop proving the world right.

By contrast, should one conclude that Sout Africans don't seek after truth? Makes me proud to be an American which includes South America, Central America, Mexico, United States, and Canada.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Makes me proud to be an American which includes South America, Central America, Mexico, United States, and Canada.

Indeed. Our friend nomi has only succeeded in demonstrating how baseless her anti-American sentiment really is. Americans are "proving the world right" when they look for truth? Give me a break!

[_Quantumwave]

Hi Celestial Kingdom,

To refresh your memory, you wrote:

Quantum,

There's a big volume out from FARMS called traditions in the life of Abraham or something like that that brings them all together. It's supposedly a really good volume, used as a textbook even by some non-Mormon universities. I haven't looked at the Testament of Abraham, but the Apocalypse of Abraham has a few interesting similarities with the Book of Abraham. Then again, these similarities have been greatly exaggerated in the apologetic literature, such as the work of Michael D. Rhodes. I highly recommend people read these apocryphal works for themselves, rather than relying on the apologists' descriptions of them. In any case, the Apocalypse fits right into the scene of first-and-second century Jewish apocalypticism and anti-idolatry rhetoric. I can't imagine there being much extra-Biblical, historically accurate information about Abraham therein. Nor does the Book of Abraham exhibit the same kind of first-century earmarks, so making it a late apocryphon is almost as problematic as having it be an authentic account of Abraham's life.

-CK

Well, I took your advice and checked out the "big volume" from the library. You were close enough with the title. It is "Traditions about the early life of Abraham" compiled and edited by John Tvedtnes, Brian Hauglid and John Gee.

"Big" does not do it justice. It is about 500 pages of 8-1/2 by 11 inches! Anyway I have started perusing it, and frankly am somewhat disappointed but not surprised with the following statement. (my bold)

Under Editors’ Introduction

Selections from the Abraham Traditions:

This volume does not include all the Abraham stories from the sources cited nor all the available stories about Abraham. Rather, it includes only those portions of the stories that relate to events in Abraham’s early life through those events covered by the Book of Abraham. Thus we have stories beginning with Abraham’s birth (or, rather, his conception) through his visit to Egypt, leaving out events that correspond to Abraham’s later life, as recorded in Genesis 14-25, and omitting parallels to the creation materials in Abraham 4-5 (also known from Genesis 1-2).

And this one also under Editors' Introduction:

Transmission of Abraham Traditions:

Many of the Abraham stories began as oral traditions that were passed on from one generation to another. Jews and Muslims alike preserved the transmission lines along with the stories themselves, thus establishing their antiquity.
The later Jewish texts frequently cite early rabbis as sources for the information about Abraham and often give the names of other rabbis who passed the stories on to future generations. A typical entry would read, “Rabbi Z said on the authority of Rabbi Y, who had it from Rabbi X.” This sort of authentification of early rabbinic declarations began as early as the second century A.D., when the Mishnah was compiled, and continued well into the Middle Ages. Most recitations of earlier authority were used to establish doctrinal issues, so there was always a dialectic purpose behind the lines of transmission.

So far, reading through the section titled "Earliest Traditions about the Early Life of Abraham" I haven't found any wriiten reference to Abraham that predates the 3rd century BC.

Also, it occurs to me that the Jews themselves should be the best authority on the historicity of Genesis, since the Torah was written in Hebrew and all, but this only raises more problems with finding reference to primary source materials as this quote from the on-line encyclopedia points out. (again, my bold)

Written in Hebrew, the oldest Jewish language, the Torah is the central and most important document of Judaism revered by Jews through the ages, and very important to Christians. It is traditionally accepted as the literal word of God as told to Moses.

I'm still reading though.

So since the Torah, (as you know, first 5 books of the Old Testament) was not written by God, then it had to be orally transmitted to Moses, if you believe the traditional explanation by Jewish Rabbi.

This, of course would preclude any written source document predating Moses, who purportedly lived about 600 years after the advent of Abraham.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Hi, Quantum!

I am curious: do the compilers of the volume make any effort to establish lines of transmission for the various texts they utilize? For example, if a particular Abraham tradition bears a strong resemblance to a document dated a few centuries earlier, then we can speculate that the latter is dependent on the former. This kind of analysis could help us establish which traditions are earlier/more accurate than others and roughly when and why certain narrative elements appeared. Such analysis, I think, is a crucial preliminary step in evaluating the evidentiary value of these traditions in verifying the Book of Abraham. If FARMS has not engaged in such an analysis, then I suppose it will fall to the critics to reluctantly do their grunt-work for them.

I don't think we can exclude the possibility of pre-Mosaic written sources solely on the basis of later Jewish tradition. Jewish tradition really isn't accurate in this respect since, as you probably know, most or all of the Torah was written well after the time of Moses. It may have been compiled during the Exile primarily from four prior documentary sources (commonly labeled E, J, P, and D, the earliest of which would have been about 10th-c. BC). The most likely candidate for a composition that is actually from the pen of Moses is the so-called Song of Moses, found in Deuteronomy 32:1-43.

I am pleased that you have undertaken to look into this matter. Please report your findings here!

-CK

[_nomi]

Yes, go ahed..hahaha..you are really funny. Anyways what i was saying is that sometimes somethings are like really wack.checked out you information about Abraha, I have never in my life read so much gabbage (sorry if it hurts your feelings) Dude, I mean really it's like coming up with information that Moses wasn't real, evidence that Isaac wasn't real (blablabla..)

And you Carlifoniakid don't get me started on the America vs the World argument cause it's not going to be pretty. And just for the record, I never said tha yall shouldn't be proud of being Americans. I'm proudly South African baby. I'm from a beautiful country in the world and I'm sure your country is just as beautiful, as much as you Americans do not agree with some of the things that others do, I really don't like the fact that Americans(most of the time) are constantly trying to prove things to the world.

[_CaliforniaKid]

nomi,

I don't do this to prove things to the world. I am engaged in a study as part of my own spiritual and intellectual journey, and I share my findings to help other people who are similarly engaged (and I like when they help me in the same way). So if that sort of study isn't your cup of tea, I understand; but surely you will respect that it is mine. Perhaps the problem with Americans is that we hold a belief that truth is the ultimate arbiter of existence: "the truth shall set you free" is like our national motto. Not all peoples share our dedication to the pursuit of pure information; nor do they often have the leisure time or resources to pursue it, even if they wanted to.

-CK

[_nomi]

you are missing the point china, I think that its cool that people want to know the truth but sometimes people go to extreme lenghts in persuing the truth. Like I said, I read the evidence and its really crap. So Sorry again if I touched your nerves. Its really, I mean really crap. There are findings by you Americans that have helped me in my career, for instance when it comes to medicines you guys are good, and like you said you have resources that help you improve the general level of your findings for truth but what I read about Abraham, really its just crap. You should learn that not everyone takes the evidence that people present here, and that people do have their own agendas. So, some of the truths that I have found in this forum are shocking, and not true at all, and some of the things I have found have helped me in my life, like in a BIG way. So it's not as much about you as a nation, if you get me, the thing is that I do think that Abraham existed unless someone has proof that is not as bad as I read, then maybe I will be convinced and one thing that i have leraned in life ic "Don't believe everything you read, you will be shocked how much of it is the real thruth" One clever America dude said that to me, while I was still in University.

[_nomi]

you are missing the point china, I think that its cool that people want to know the truth but sometimes people go to extreme lenghts in persuing the truth. Like I said, I read the evidence and its really crap. So Sorry again if I touched your nerves. Its really, I mean really crap. There are findings by you Americans that have helped me in my career, for instance when it comes to medicines you guys are good, and like you said you have resources that help you improve the general level of your findings for truth but what I read about Abraham, really its just crap. You should learn that not everyone takes the evidence that people present here, and that people do have their own agendas. So, some of the truths that I have found in this forum are shocking, and not true at all, and some of the things I have found have helped me in my life, like in a BIG way. So it's not as much about you as a nation, if you get me, the thing is that I do think that Abraham existed unless someone has proof that is not as bad as I read, then maybe I will be convinced and one thing that i have leraned in life ic "Don't believe everything you read, you will be shocked how much of it is the real thruth" One clever America dude said that to me, while I was still in University.

[_Quantumwave]

Nomi,

What a profound argument! The evidence is wrong because it is garbage and crap. WOW!!! I would never have thought of that! My feelings are really, really devastated. You need to make sure all the world's Biblical apologists are aware of this argument, so they can inform all critical doubters of the truth, and they will have no choice but to become believers.

Your argument will make all apologists proud!

(Liz, I know this is the Celestial Forum, but that's as polite as I could make it)