The Book of Abraham

[_Paul Osborne]

Abraham is a myth.

You can't prove that, Harmony. There are a great many people throughout history who spoke of Abraham as if he was a real person. Even Jesus Christ can trace his genealogy to Abraham and that's a valid record. I trust the Biblical account and the testimonies therein. Those who scoff the idea of the existence of an Abraham can scoff away. It's no skin off my back.

Paul O

[_Paul Osborne]

Abraham is a myth.

Probably. Then again, it's impossible to know for sure.

Hey, the same thing could be said of George Washington 4,000 years from now. He never existed! George was just a myth to inspire a band of rebellious soldiers. Could be Harmony's descendents that deny poor George!

Paul O

[_Fortigurn]

Hey, the same thing could be said of George Washington 4,000 years from now. He never existed! George was just a myth to inspire a band of rebellious soldiers. Could be Harmony's descendents that deny poor George!

It's actually highly likely that this will happen. Future societies (if this species manages to survive), will very likely treat a lot of our records as mythical or legendary. No physical evidence will exist for Washinton in about 100 years or so, and existing records of his life are already considered to be full of propaganda which cannot always easily be separated from the truth. It is likely that a lot of our famous figures (such as Einstein and Newton), will be seen as literary topoi common to a society which apparently felt a necessity to attribute paradigm shifts and significant historical events to individuals rather than to a concatenation of events.

[_Quantumwave]

[quote="Paul Osborne
Quantumwave,

I have no doubt that Abraham was fluent in more than one language, including Egyptian. Abraham was said to be a wise man of great intelligence. Heck, even the pope can speak several languages, so why not Abraham?

The Genesis Apocryphon tells us that after Abraham had lived in Egypt for 5 years, the pharaoh sent three of his sons to inquire about Abraham and his business. Imagine that! Even the pharaoh of Egypt, one of the most learned men on earth, wants to know what Abraham is up to! The account goes on to tell us that Abraham left Egypt two years later a wealthy man. These are clues to indicate that Abraham was a smart man within his crafts.

Now, it may enlighten you to know that Josephus not only credited Abraham with knowledge of arithmetic and astronomy but also said that Abraham was permitted by the king to "enter into conversation with the most learned among the Egyptians" and had a great reputation among them!

But the clincher is when Josephus said that Abraham went to Egypt to partake of the "plenty" and to "become an auditor of their priests". Book 1; 8:1

It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that Abraham could speak and write Egyptian. Josephus believed it and so do I. Do you? Furthermore, the Biblical account has shown us that Abraham’s great grandson (Joseph) had a supreme knowledge of all things Egyptian – he being next to the pharaoh himself. I can't think of one reason why Abraham couldn't have written on papyrus in his day. The evidence certainly leans in the direction that he did just that. You, on the other hand, have no evidence that he didn't or couldn't write on papyrus.

Paul O

PS Where did you ever come to the conclusion that prophets can't be scribes?

[/quote]

Paul, the difficult problem with your argument is the total lack of direct source materials. It is well documented that the Genesis epic of Abraham, including apocrypha and all, was written on the order of 1000 years after the purported Abraham lived. You can cite these sources all you like, but the sad fact is, there are no direct source materials to back up what was written. And more to the point, these writers give absolutely no reference to source materials with direct links to Abraham, either written by his own hand or written by an eyewitness . If there had been original source materials with direct links to Abraham, wouldn’t you think they would be cited in the writings of the Hebrew scribes? Any writer would cite source materials to provide credibility to their stories. The fact that there is no direct source material mentioned, strengthens the conclusion that there was no source material for the scribes to draw from for the simple reason that Abraham was their own creation.

Even good old Joseph Smith cited direct source materials for his controversial renditions of the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon. His testimony says that both of these sagas were translated from original materials that were recorded by the principle actors in his books. Unfortunately the Book of Abraham source material now in existence was obviously not written by the hand of Abraham as you have admitted, and the gold plates have mysteriously disappeared.

Your reference to Josephus as an authority on Abraham is laughable! Josephus wrote his stuff after the advent of Jesus, which disconnects him by another thousand years in addition to the time of the Hebrew scribes.

The apocryphal material was not included in the canon for the simple reason it was obviously considered by the authority at the time to be lacking in credibility, and the same reason applies today.

[_harmony]

Abraham is a myth.

You can't prove that, Harmony. There are a great many people throughout history who spoke of Abraham as if he was a real person. Even Jesus Christ can trace his genealogy to Abraham and that's a valid record. I trust the Biblical account and the testimonies therein. Those who scoff the idea of the existence of an Abraham can scoff away. It's no skin off my back.

Paul O

What are you going to do if it turns out Jesus Christ was a myth too?

[_Paul Osborne]

Quantumwave,

Feel free to dump all the works of Josephus right into the trash can and laugh it up. Your rejection of the Bible and Book of Mormon regarding the life Abraham is no skin off my back. I really don’t care about your skin anyway. I’m a self centered man.

You will however have to come to terms about one important matter if you really want to deny the existence of Abraham. The genealogy of Jesus Christ is officially listed in the New Testament as a family record. You will have to ask yourself where the myth began. Jesus traced his line all the way back to David via Abraham. So which grandfather does the myth begin? Which of the sons was duped by a phony record? Was it Jesus or, his great, great, great . . . .

Finally, Jesus preached Abraham. That’s good enough for me, I believe him and I feel pretty good about it.

Paul O

PS. Harmony, maybe you're a myth or, will become one.

[_Fortigurn]

What are you going to do if it turns out Jesus Christ was a myth too?

I think we're pretty safe on that one.

[_Fortigurn]

The genealogy of Jesus Christ is officially listed in the New Testament as a family record.

Actually only Joseph's family record is given.

You will have to ask yourself where the myth began. Jesus traced his line all the way back to David via Abraham. So which grandfather does the myth begin? Which of the sons was duped by a phony record? Was it Jesus or, his great, great, great . . . .

It doesn't take any of them to be duped. Matthew only has to invent the record himself. Bear in mind that I'm a Christian who believes in the literal existence of Abraham as a real person, but I'm not going to pretend there's any indisputable evidence for it.

Finally, Jesus preached Abraham. That’s good enough for me, I believe him and I feel pretty good about it.

I think that's as good as it might get for you Paul.

[_Gazelam]

You asked: "Do you have information regarding the date and author(s) of the books?"

I found this regarding the "Apocalypse of Abraham" discovered in 1897:

THE SLAVONIC TEXT AND MSS1
The Slavonic version, or rather translation, of The Apocalypse of Abraham (Ap. Abr.) has
been preserved in a number of MSS. The oldest and most valuable of these is the famous
Codex Sylvester,2 which now belongs to the Library of the Printing-department of the Holy
Synod in Moscow. The MS., which dates from the first half of the fourteenth century, is
written on parchment, with two columns on each page, and contains 216 leaves in all, our
Apocalypse occupying leaves 164-182.3 It contains a collection of lives of different saints, and
The Apocalypse of Abraham stands in it as a work complete in itself, without any connexion
with the works which precede and follow it.

Here is a link to the page I got this from: http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/box.pdf

[_Gazelam]

In regards to the Testament of Abraham:

Testament of Abraham
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The Testament of Abraham is a 1st century CE Jewish work originating in Egypt[1] now regarded as part of the Old Testament apocrypha. It is often treated as one of a trio of very similar works, the other two of which are the Testament of Isaac and Testament of Jacob, though there is no reason to assume that they were originally a single work. All three works are based on the Blessing of Jacob, found in the Bible, in their style.

The first English translation was published by H. R. James[citation needed] (The Testament of Abraham, the Greek Text now first edited with an Introduction and Notes. With an appendix containing extracts from the Arabic Version of the Testaments of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, by Barnes, Texts and Studies, ii. 2: Cambridge). The Greek testament of Abraham is preserved in two recensions from six and three manuscripts respectively. This testament is also edited by Vassiliev in his Anecdota Graeco-Byzantina, 1893, i. 292308 from a Vienna MS already used by James. According to James, it was written in Egypt in the 2nd century CE and was translated subsequently into Slavonic (Tichonrawow, Pamjatniki otretschennoi russkoi Literaturi, 1863, i. 7990), Romanian (Gaster, Proceedings of the Society of Biblical Archaeology, 1887, 1X. 195226), Ethiopic and Arabic.

As regards its origin James writes (op. cit., p. 55): "The Testament was originally put together in the second century by a Jewish Christian", for the narrative portions he employed existing Jewish legends, and for the apocalyptic, he drew largely on his imagination. He holds that the book is referred to by Origen, Horn. in Luc. xxxv. With the exception of x.xi. the work is really a legend and not an apocalypse. To the above conclusions Schrer, Geschichte des John Dehlin. Volkes, 3rd ed., iii. 252, takes objection, and denies the reference in Origen, asserting that there are no grounds for the assumption of a partial Jewish origin. Kohler on the other hand (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1895, V. 581606) has given adequate grounds for regarding this apocryph as in the main an independent work of Jewish origin subsequently enlarged by a few Christian additions, and it is Kohler's stance that most scholars follow today.

This testament deals with Abraham's reluctance to die and the means by which his death was brought about. The testament states that when Abraham is told of his impending death, he tried to put it off by asking first to see the entire world, a wish that is granted by a flying chariot. Abraham is then granted a vision of heaven, with his deeds having been recorded in a book, and being weighed by a balance, both concepts of the land of the dead that are heavily influenced by Egyptian ideas, and the judgement of Ma'at. When Death finally comes in person for Abraham, Abraham tries to resist, but is finally tricked into dying.

Neither of these were available in Joseph Smiths time for him to read.