The Book of Abraham

[_harmony]

The missing parts of the figures that you posted above.

Well, I think the sketches incorporated by the prophet are wrong from an Egyptological point of few – but that’s not important. What matters is the message of the Book of Abraham is correct.

I’m pretty sure that the original Anubis character in Facsimile No. 1 was holding a cup. I'd be happy to discuss that with Joseph Smith if he was available.

Paul O

The message of Animal Farm is correct, Paul. That doesn't make it scripture.

[_Quantumwave]

Since we do not have the original payri we do not know if a direct translation was in Joseph Smiths possesion

We don't have ALL of it, but we have parts of the genuine papyrus used by the prophet and his associates to translate the Book of Abraham.


Paul O

Paul, in view of the following quote found in the preamble to the Book of Abraham:

...The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.

Are you saying this part

of the genuine papyrus used by the prophet and his associates to translate the Book of Abraham

was written by the hand of Abraham?

[_Paul Osborne]

Quantumwave,

The genuine papyrus I referred to was the collection that was purchased by the Church in 1835 from Michael Chandler. The papyrus that was sold to the Church was not owned by Abraham. The prophet Abraham had his own papyrus that was lost in antiquity. The Book of Abraham today is a restoration of that original work.

Paul O

[_Paul Osborne]

The message of Animal Farm is correct, Paul. That doesn't make it scripture.

Harmony,

Animal Farm or no Animal Farm; is this scripture?

"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born."

Paul O

[_Quantumwave]

Quantumwave,

The genuine papyrus I referred to was the collection that was purchased by the Church in 1835 from Michael Chandler. The papyrus that was sold to the Church was not owned by Abraham. The prophet Abraham had his own papyrus that was lost in antiquity. The Book of Abraham today is a restoration of that original work.

Paul O

It appears to be an assumption on your part that,

The prophet Abraham had his own papyrus that was lost in antiquity.

If you have basis for that statement that would elevate it above personal assumption, it would be most interesting to be enlightened.

I point this out since it is highly unlikely the character Abraham would have written anything on papyrus, given the time and place of his origin. The mode of recording in the Ur of Chaldees (Iraq) around 1900 BC has been established to be cuneiform, on clay tablets. If Abraham had learned to write, which is not likely, he would have learned to write using his native cuneiform.

The problem with Abraham writing anything at all, aside from the likelihood he never existed, is that in general, Old Testament prophets were not known to provide records. Scribes did the recording. Prophets were not scribes and scribes were not prophets.

[_Paul Osborne]

Quantumwave,

The genuine papyrus I referred to was the collection that was purchased by the Church in 1835 from Michael Chandler. The papyrus that was sold to the Church was not owned by Abraham. The prophet Abraham had his own papyrus that was lost in antiquity. The Book of Abraham today is a restoration of that original work.

Paul O

It appears to be an assumption on your part that,

The prophet Abraham had his own papyrus that was lost in antiquity.

If you have basis for that statement that would elevate it above personal assumption, it would be most interesting to be enlightened.

I point this out since it is highly unlikely the character Abraham would have written anything on papyrus, given the time and place of his origin. The mode of recording in the Ur of Chaldees (Iraq) around 1900 BC has been established to be cuneiform, on clay tablets. If Abraham had learned to write, which is not likely, he would have learned to write using his native cuneiform.

The problem with Abraham writing anything at all, aside from the likelihood he never existed, is that in general, Old Testament prophets were not known to provide records. Scribes did the recording. Prophets were not scribes and scribes were not prophets.

Quantumwave,

I have no doubt that Abraham was fluent in more than one language, including Egyptian. Abraham was said to be a wise man of great intelligence. Heck, even the pope can speak several languages, so why not Abraham?

The Genesis Apocryphon tells us that after Abraham had lived in Egypt for 5 years, the pharaoh sent three of his sons to inquire about Abraham and his business. Imagine that! Even the pharaoh of Egypt, one of the most learned men on earth, wants to know what Abraham is up to! The account goes on to tell us that Abraham left Egypt two years later a wealthy man. These are clues to indicate that Abraham was a smart man within his crafts.

Now, it may enlighten you to know that Josephus not only credited Abraham with knowledge of arithmetic and astronomy but also said that Abraham was permitted by the king to "enter into conversation with the most learned among the Egyptians" and had a great reputation among them!

But the clincher is when Josephus said that Abraham went to Egypt to partake of the "plenty" and to "become an auditor of their priests". Book 1; 8:1

It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that Abraham could speak and write Egyptian. Josephus believed it and so do I. Do you? Furthermore, the Biblical account has shown us that Abraham’s great grandson (Joseph) had a supreme knowledge of all things Egyptian – he being next to the pharaoh himself. I can't think of one reason why Abraham couldn't have written on papyrus in his day. The evidence certainly leans in the direction that he did just that. You, on the other hand, have no evidence that he didn't or couldn't write on papyrus.

Paul O

PS Where did you ever come to the conclusion that prophets can't be scribes?

[_harmony]

The message of Animal Farm is correct, Paul. That doesn't make it scripture.

Harmony,

Animal Farm or no Animal Farm; is this scripture?

"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born."

Paul O

That's vintage Joseph Smith, Paul. Wishful thinking. Good storytelling. Vivid imagination.

Abraham is a myth.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Abraham is a myth.

Probably. Then again, it's impossible to know for sure.

[_dartagnan]

There is nothing in ancient documents that would serve as compelling evidence for the Book of Abraham. Apologists blindly tout certain works being completely oblivious to the fact that the content that is allegedly "comparable" to the Book of Abraham, was already known in the 19th century in other sources just the same.

This is why I think the latest wave of Book of Abraham apologetics is pretty much a deception campaign. "Critics are too afraid to deal with what the text says and are concentrating on what papyrus is the source," is the latest condemning rant from the apologetic camp. They hope nobody will actually study the text to find more parallels with 19th century works than with works ancient. Too many apologists buy into it because they are too lazy to read anything except Nibley and FARMS. They think huge tomes in leather binding somehow says something about the quality of the scholarship and logic.

I illustrated the ridiculous standard for "evidence" by even the elite in LDS academia.

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=1608

[_dartagnan]

http://www.kevingraham.org/forum/viewto ... =3414#3414

I just examined an article DCP wrote on this matter.