Anti-gays MISREAD Bible...

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_Roger Morrison
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Anti-gays MISREAD Bible...

Post by _Roger Morrison »

So says Anglican Prelate, speaking in Toronto... (bold added)

Reuters) - The spiritual leader of the world's 77 million Anglicans has said conservative Christians who cite the Bible to condemn homosexuality are misreading a key passage written by Saint Paul almost 2,000 years ago.

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, addressing theology students in Toronto, said an oft-quoted passage in Paul's Epistle to the Romans meant to warn Christians not to be self-righteous when they see others fall into sin.

His comments were an unusually open rebuff to conservative bishops, many of them from Africa, who have been citing the Bible to demand that pro-gay Anglican majorities in the United States and Canada be reined in or forced out of the Communion.

"Many current ways of reading miss the actual direction of the passage," Williams said on Monday, according to a text of his speech posted on the Anglican Church of Canada's Web site.

"Paul is making a primary point not about homosexuality but about the delusions of the supposedly law-abiding."

The worldwide Anglican Communion is near breaking point over homosexuality, with conservative clerics insisting the Bible forbids gay bishops or blessings for same-sex unions. Its U.S. branch, the Episcopal Church, named a gay bishop in 2003.


In fact, Williams also revealed on Tuesday that he had considered canceling the Anglicans' once-a-decade 2008 Lambeth Conference, which has the potential to become a flashpoint over homosexuality.

"Yes, we've already been considering that and the answer is no," he told the Anglican Church of Canada's Anglican Journal.

"We've been looking at whether the timing is right, but if we wait for the ideal time, we will wait more than just 18 months."

In the passage of Romans that Williams referred to in Monday's speech, Paul said people who forgot God's words fell into sin. "Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion," Paul wrote.

Williams said these lines were "for the majority of modern readers the most important single text in Scripture on the subject of homosexuality." But right after that passage, Paul warns readers not to condemn those who ignore God's word.

"At whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself," wrote Paul, the first-century apostle whose epistles, or letters, to early Christian communities elaborated many Church teachings.


NEITHER SIDE WINS

Williams said reinterpreting Paul's epistle as a warning against smug self-righteousness rather than homosexuality would favor neither side over the other in the bitter struggle that threatens to plunge the Anglican Communion into schism.

It would not help pro-gay liberals, he said, because Paul and his readers clearly agreed that homosexuality was "as obviously immoral as idol worship or disobedience to parents."

This reading would also upset anti-gay conservatives, who have been "up to this point happily identifying with Paul's castigation of someone else," and challenge them to ask whether they were right to judge others, he added.

"This does nothing to settle the exegetical questions fiercely debated at the moment," Williams said.

But he said a "strictly theological reading of Scripture" would not allow a Christian to denounce others and not ask whether he or she were also somehow at fault.
Williams warned of the danger of schism.

"The Communion has to face the fact that there is a division in our Church and it's getting deeper and more bitter," he said. "If the Anglican Church divides, everyone will lose."


Win or lose, the Anglican Church is demonstrating true Christian courage by putting forth the principle of "God" love for ALL. Which means NO ONE is excluded from receipt of "God" justice, human acceptance, and full unpredudiced participation in life... As I see it... What about You??? Warm regards, Roger
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

Poor Williams. It must be uncomfortable straddling the fence.
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_The Nehor
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Re: Anti-gays MISREAD Bible...

Post by _The Nehor »

Roger Morrison wrote:Win or lose, the Anglican Church is demonstrating true Christian courage by putting forth the principle of "God" love for ALL. Which means NO ONE is excluded from receipt of "God" justice, human acceptance, and full unpredudiced participation in life... As I see it... What about You??? Warm regards, Roger


I'm a big fan of the theory that with any issue on which you have hateful, rabid people on both sides you can bet that the people involved are all offering a solution to the wrong problem.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

I would like to think with Jesus' primary request to love God and one another, we could progress beyond the social practices of the primitive society of Biblical times and truly be just and kind toward each other in more modern times.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

moksha wrote:I would like to think with Jesus' primary request to love God and one another, we could progress beyond the social practices of the primitive society of Biblical times and truly be just and kind toward each other in more modern times.


Mok,What, do You "think" keeps us/some-christian-folks from doing that? Remedy?

I'm a big fan of the theory that with any issue on which you have hateful, rabid people on both sides you can bet that the people involved are all offering a solution to the wrong problem.


Nehor, please expand your thought as it applies to homosexuality... "...the wrong problem." Which is???
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

moksha wrote:I would like to think with Jesus' primary request to love God and one another, we could progress beyond the social practices of the primitive society of Biblical times and truly be just and kind toward each other in more modern times.


Those ancients again. When will we ever understand that they saw through a glass darkly, just like we do? That they had no special conduit to God.
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

harmony wrote:
moksha wrote:I would like to think with Jesus' primary request to love God and one another, we could progress beyond the social practices of the primitive society of Biblical times and truly be just and kind toward each other in more modern times.


Those ancients again. When will we ever understand that they saw through a glass darkly, just like we do? That they had no special conduit to God.


God is nostalgic, doncha know? He only hangs out with people in the old days, not in modern times. You have to be a scripture character to talk to god. Miracles? HA! He saves all his best stuff for dead people.

If you're willing to wait 100 years or so, you'll get to talk to god today too. So let it be written. So let it be done.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Hey Roger,

Thanks for posting. Most fundies sputter when you ask them what did JESUS have to say about gay people.

It's fun to watch.

I said in class the other week that my focus, my mission so to speak is cleaning my own house, and finding value in my neighbor, even when he tells me to my face he doesn't like or will not walk along my path. It ain't all about me. We were debating the compatibility of Christian theism with postmodernism.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Roger Morrison wrote:Nehor, please expand your thought as it applies to homosexuality... "...the wrong problem." Which is???


I honestly don't know. In my experience, most difficult and thorny political, theological, social, and relationship issues that I've overcome require me to figure out what the problem really is and what question I should be asking. It's usually something simple and profound.

"God hates fags."
"We have the right to marriage."
"Marriage is defined as the union of a man and a woman."
"We will not be discriminated against."
"The Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin."
"Why can't homosexuality be discussed in schools?"

This is a random sampling I got from a quick Google search. I get the impression that they're not entirely sure what they're arguing about. We need some paradigm shifting. One side seems to think God is on their side (difficult to prove) while the other seems to think that their rights (what rights?) are being violated.

What the former seems to actually want is for the homosexual community to give up their lifestyle or at least hide in the shadows. The latter is not seeking for rights so much as a quasi-forced respect and (some would argue) converts. Until the obfuscation stops it will be a couple of nutty extremists on both sides howling at each other.

And to lighten things up a bit:

How both sides can shoot themselves in foot:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28491
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/32075
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Roger Morrison wrote: Mok,What, do You "think" keeps us/some-Christian-folks from doing that? Remedy?



Many Christian Churches have been at work removing barriers for full participation of those who are different and hence, less lovable. They are putting themselves in line with Jesus' primary request. I can only sigh when I see my own Church in the back of the pack on many issues of social justice for these latter-days.

Some individuals progress quite well on their own, others need to be told when to jump and still others need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the more civil behaviors of the modern era.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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