Anti-gays MISREAD Bible...

[_Roger Morrison]

GIMR, thank You for what you put into the Universe. It is said, "no thought, word or deed is ever lost." That they go to make up the Universal "Grit Ball" that will either polish-up or wear-down humanity as it evolves/devolves...

Thank God for all our sakes, that when all is said and done, Grace will triumph over our Karma.

Mok, never thought of 'energy' as "Karma"??? Maybe physics and spirituality are closer than we might think??? Interesting how concepts and precepts are expressed by words that might be understood differently by the speaker & the hearer... both assuming each understands the other...

OK, "Grace" to me is the state in which we 'freely' access our human Universal NEEDS: AIR, WATER, & FOOD. The other needs/wants are produced by humans sustained by the "Grace" of a Just "God".

In that i agree, we should "Thank God for all our sakes...(for that)..."Grace"... However, i think we should also thank "God" that increasing awareness of physical & spiritual laws is raising human consciousness & conscience to an empathy that disallows prejudice to influence legislation whereby submission of higher law to preserve the status quo seems the thing to do, IMSCO... Warm regards, Roger

[_harmony]

Richard, has it ever occurred to you that the ancients, the men you attempt to follow so closely, are keeping you from developing a personal relationship with God, by the inaccuracy of their words and teachings? Has it ever occurred to you that by following them, you are shortchanging your own spirituality? Has it ever occurred to you that they were simply wrong about some things that might be pertinent in your life today?

Because it took me a while to realize it myself, but the ancients were just men, men trying to figure out who and what God was, and how their world worked. They didn't have a better understanding or any closer a relationship with God than we do today. And if you can figure out that Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, how and why did you figure out that Paul was?

[_Sam Harris]

GIMR,

I don't think that richard thinks he's "special" and I don't know why you say that. For some reason you seem to be under the impression that richard is self righteous. My best guess is that richard thinks he is a sinner, just as he thinks those who engage in homosexual activity are sinners. Is he allowed to judge that a behavior is wrong?

Jersey Girl

Richard doesn't have the right to judge. God is our judge. Looking at another person and trying to tell them that because you feel you know the Bible better than them, they are slipping up is wrong. Clean your own house.

If Richard thinks he's such a sinner, then he needs to work on that. Why is he only focusing on gay people? What about teenage mothers, unwed mothers, people who drink, rapists, muderers, people who abuse their children? If you're gonna shame one, shame all. And in shaming all you shame yourself.

I know it matters nothing, but this is coming from someone who has a lot of the above related to her. They never listen to me, they don't care. But they sit up and take notice when I start college, and keep a good GPA. They notice when I stay out of trouble, they notice when I keep certain company. Talking to them about how bad they are only makes them turn away more.

What disgusts me the most is that some of the people who call themselves Christians do the very opposite in their dealings with sinners that their supposed Lord said to do. And they quote Paul, they quote the writings of Moses.

Which is why I am VERY hesitant who I deal with in the Christian community. So-called Bible believing folk are some of the most emotionally damaging people to deal with.

[_Sam Harris]

GIMR Because if it can be proven that love between two men can be both a choice and a chemical inclination, who the heck are you, based on one book (Philippians 4:8 honey, WHATEVER IS OF GOOD REPORT, you don't seem to look at that), to damn them?

Where did I base things on one book. Yes, I do meditate on the goodness of God. But Paul wrote many other books in addition to Philippians and to everything there is a time and a place.

WHAT ABOUT JESUS!!! He's your Lord, isn't He? What would Jesus do to gay people? To anyone? What did he do to sinners besides quote the law and try to shame them? Are you doing what your Lord, the person who claim allegiance to is doing?

This is so sad.

[_Sam Harris]

Richard, has it ever occurred to you that the ancients, the men you attempt to follow so closely, are keeping you from developing a personal relationship with God, by the inaccuracy of their words and teachings? Has it ever occurred to you that by following them, you are shortchanging your own spirituality? Has it ever occurred to you that they were simply wrong about some things that might be pertinent in your life today?

Because it took me a while to realize it myself, but the ancients were just men, men trying to figure out who and what God was, and how their world worked. They didn't have a better understanding or any closer a relationship with God than we do today. And if you can figure out that Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, how and why did you figure out that Paul was?

Only people who fit your worldview, in the existence of the "Bible-believing", can be prophets or teachers. This is one of those "because I said so", or "because the Bible says so" situations.

The church may not have worked for me, but I am not going to say it cannot work for others. I have LDS friends who I called to my bedside to bless me when I was in the hospital. Not for me, but for them. Because I know they wanted to do it, and do anytime I'm suffering. As any friend would. I do it to show them that I love them as they are, regardless of religious differences.

Why is that such a hard concept? Of course, I'm the worst of judges for pointing out that perhaps a little more unity would be a good thing. Time to quote the New Testament... not coming from you, of course.

[_Sam Harris]

Richard, it is exactly because my life is not spotless that I ask you to stop trying to judge others in place of God.

Because if we had you to answer to, we'd all be hell-bound. And yes, a gay-gene is relevant. Because if it can be proven that love between two men can be both a choice and a chemical inclination, who the heck are you, based on one book (Philippians 4:8 honey, WHATEVER IS OF GOOD REPORT, you don't seem to look at that), to damn them?

Now quit it with the running around and admit to being a legalist who feels an intrinsic need to judge other groups of people so he can feel special.

You don't know me. You feel quite happy condeming me and telling me to shut up. I guess that makes you feel superior. I've said that homosexual acts are sinful. The Bible supports me there. I've made no claim to be superior to anyone.

Does the Bible allow me to say anything about sexual sins? Was Nathan wrong to confront David over his adultery? Geez, LDS have accused me and other similar thinking evangelicals of being libertines because we believe in justification by faith alone. The New Testament teaches that a redeemed person will manifest that in a new life. I agree with the 17C Puritans. They rejected both the legalists (and LDS tend towards that extreme) and the libertines who thought that no change in life was necessary for the redeemed person. I reject your accusation that I'm a legalist. As I wrote above, you don't know me.

Let's be mature. I asked you to "quit it", which means quit condemning.

Why do you need to dictate someone else's life? Why? Do you love the people you are condemning. Were Nathan and David strangers?

I'm an evangelical, but we're on the opposite end of the spectrum. Yeah, justification by faith alone, to hell with common courtesy to people whose lives we have hardly stepped into. But gays must not be all that human, or their souls are dead, that's why they sleep with people of the same sex.

I don't have any opinion on who you are as a person. People can disdain gays and still be family folk. What I'm asking is why you feel the need to single out these folks. Are you that clean? Are you that righteous? Perhaps the LDS are well to pick on you, because at least some of them are honestly trying to dot all the "I's" and cross all the "T's". You say this is nonsense, that all you have to do is confess Christ. But there are people who disagree with you, my pastor and myself among them. You can quote all the scriptures you want (I hope should I ever have to teach another I don't rely on just that, how about a life lived?), you can say you're a "Bible-believing Christian", but if there is no compassion in your heart towards the lowest of the low, then it's just not in you. Sorry.

You don't know me either. And I don't care. The only opinion I care about is God's. That's why for the most part I ignore "Bible-believing" tirades...until I remember how they drove me away from Christ, thinking I was too filthy for His love.

Am I? Are you?

[_Jersey Girl]

GIMR

Richard doesn't have the right to judge. God is our judge. Looking at another person and trying to tell them that because you feel you know the Bible better than them, they are slipping up is wrong. Clean your own house.

I asked you if Richard has the right to judge a behavior.

GIMR

If Richard thinks he's such a sinner, then he needs to work on that. Why is he only focusing on gay people? What about teenage mothers, unwed mothers, people who drink, rapists, muderers, people who abuse their children? If you're gonna shame one, shame all. And in shaming all you shame yourself.

Because that is the topic he's posting to.

GIMR

I know it matters nothing, but this is coming from someone who has a lot of the above related to her. They never listen to me, they don't care. But they sit up and take notice when I start college, and keep a good GPA. They notice when I stay out of trouble, they notice when I keep certain company. Talking to them about how bad they are only makes them turn away more.

If you're referring to the life circumstances and offenses that you listed in your comments, I have alot of the above related to me as well. Just so you know.

GIMR

What disgusts me the most is that some of the people who call themselves Christians do the very opposite in their dealings with sinners that their supposed Lord said to do. And they quote Paul, they quote the writings of Moses.

I don't know what quotes you're referring to. Do you expect a Christian believer not to reference the Bible?

GIMR

Which is why I am VERY hesitant who I deal with in the Christian community. So-called Bible believing folk are some of the most emotionally damaging people to deal with.

You don't seem hestitant to deal with richard. Just an observation.

[_Sam Harris]

GIMR, thank You for what you put into the Universe. It is said, "no thought, word or deed is ever lost." That they go to make up the Universal "Grit Ball" that will either polish-up or wear-down humanity as it evolves/devolves...

Thank God for all our sakes, that when all is said and done, Grace will triumph over our Karma.

LOL, Roger! Grit ball is a fun game. You should ask Gaz about it, I told him how it's played.

I think I'm so harsh on issues like this because I want the people who judge the "sinners" to feel the weight and the heat they throw out. You wanna dish it on gay people? Fine, I'll dish it right back on you. You wanna talk about how superior you are, because you "know the Bible", fine. I'll ask you plenty of questions, and you'd better not slip once.

If the milk and the meat are sitting side by side on your table as you sit around and quote Deuteronomy to your kids, telling them how sinful gays are, then you are a hypocrite. Plain and simple.

I just finished my theism in postmodern society paper. I learned a lot, and I think the subject of postmodernism is really relevant here. We had weeks of debate about this in class. I plan to delve deeper. But for now, I'm gonna go eat.

Please explain your comment about Deuteronomy in light of Acts 15:19-21 and Acts 10-11:18.

Richard,

This is about a fight for you, and a need to be right. I will address this one question, and then your judgement of gays is your salvation. I'm not going to hurt myself trying to get you to see that you need to step back from this. Because hurt myself I will. I will start remembering all the run-ins I've had with people who SWEAR they're more knowledgable about God or in tune with God than others. And I'll remember how they disgusted and disturbed me, and how I once told a terrible lie due to tangling with them "God is not my refuge". How I regret that day, and all because I let someone's need to be holier than someone else get to me.

Forgive me for using a concordance. Unlike you, my liege, I'm a student. I am unworthy. But I know enough to search until I'm satisfied with what I find.

On Acts 15:19-21:

You know the New Testament, right? You know that most of the early Christians were Jews? Of course! YOU know the New Testament better than anyone else here. I haven't even taken that class in school yet, I'll do that in the fall. I'd prefer my summer to be as thoughtless as possible, so the blood vessels in my brain stay in tact. Tangent. Anyways...

The very first chapter of a book I happened to pick up from B&N, a overview of the history of Christianity talks about this. It also speaks about the cultural clashes between Jew and Christian, because Christianity had in many ways adopted Jewish customs and gained a new meaning in them through Christ. There were many arguments over doctrine, and whether or not Jewish Christians were even responsible for obeying Jewish law still.

The first scriptures you quoted, I'm surprised you didn't look at the historical undertones of what Paul was saying. He was saying for the Gentiles not to offend the Jews, as there were many Jews who didn't understand that their law was made obsolete in Christ. But of course what you see is this:

Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

And that's all.

Acts 10-11:18 tells a story....I don't see anything against gay people. But perhaps the crusade has changed for a moment! Let's keep reading...[pause]

Some things stand out to me though"

Hmmmm...."what God has cleansed, you must not call common". (Acts 10:15) You say faith is all that is needed. So a gay person who professes faith in Christ, what is he or she in your eyes? A child of God? Or just a gay person?

Cornelius falls down to worship Peter in this passage, and Peter says, "Stand up, I myself am also a man" (v. 26). If Peter, one of the church fathers could be so humble, who some ordinary man whom he does not know how to live life? Does God no longer have the power to convict individual hearts that we have to SHOUT for him?

Verses 34-35 I'm sure will be a favorite of yours. Whoever fears him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. So you get to choose what that is based on your interpretation, correct?

When in Old Testament survey for school, I began to think on why homosexuality was seen as such a grievance at that time. Your wealth was seen by how many children you had, among other things. You were seen as favored by God if your children were allowed to live in such perilous times. You could only do that by a heterosexual union. So in a way I can understand why THEY, given the mindset that they had, could have such animosity against gay people. But not today.

The remainder of this chapter is a sermon by Peter on the wonders of God. No anti-homosexuality there. What were you getting at, Richard? A plea for me to have mercy on you? I haven't said you cannot live your life, or that you don't have the right to the American Dream. You get to go home safe and sound, no one is persecuting you. But in the life of those who feel that their religion is the be all and end all, ANY questions or observations other than praise are persecution.

Chapter 11 up until verse 18 is Peter explaining to the disciples why he ate with uncircumscised men. Why? Because God said so.

What does this have to do with your feelings against gay people?

[_Sam Harris]

Jersey Girl,

When do you draw the line on telling a person what to do with their life?

Why do we have to use the Bible as an excuse to do this?

I answered Richard's question, but to be honest, the topic disturbs me. I've never been hurt by a gay person, rather helped on many occasions by the ones I do know. Intelligent, kind, honest people. So I don't understand how anyone because of their religion feels that they can go against these people, many perfect strangers because they think God is telling them to.

Drugs are one thing. Prostitution is one thing. Child abuse, murder, rape, those are other things.

But a man setting up house with a man? Paying his rent on time, being a nice addition to the neighborhood, going to town meetings? And the same scenario with a woman.

I'm so sorry. I really am. But I cannot see how I'm supposed to, as a Christian, upset these people's lives. And the answers I've seen have not satisfied me.

Afterthought: There comes a point when you get sick of seeing people who claim to worship your God of love go against innocent people...like gay people. But there also comes a point when you get tired, and realize that, like I told Richard, it's their salvation. The gay people I know are smart enough to laugh at individuals like that. Maybe I should learn to do the same instead of being so concerned for them. Those individuals know who they are. They really don't need me to protect them.

I have no intentions of harm towards Richard, just to make sure you're aware.

[_Jersey Girl]

Jersey Girl,

When do you draw the line on telling a person what to do with their life?

Why do we have to use the Bible as an excuse to do this?

I answered Richard's question, but to be honest, the topic disturbs me. I've never been hurt by a gay person, rather helped on many occasions by the ones I do know. Intelligent, kind, honest people. So I don't understand how anyone because of their religion feels that they can go against these people, many perfect strangers because they think God is telling them to.

Drugs are one thing. Prostitution is one thing. Child abuse, murder, rape, those are other things.

But a man setting up house with a man? Paying his rent on time, being a nice addition to the neighborhood, going to town meetings? And the same scenario with a woman.

I'm so sorry. I really am. But I cannot see how I'm supposed to, as a Christian, upset these people's lives. And the answers I've seen have not satisfied me.

Afterthought: There comes a point when you get sick of seeing people who claim to worship your God of love go against innocent people...like gay people. But there also comes a point when you get tired, and realize that, like I told Richard, it's their salvation. The gay people I know are smart enough to laugh at individuals like that. Maybe I should learn to do the same instead of being so concerned for them. Those individuals know who they are. They really don't need me to protect them.

I have no intentions of harm towards Richard, just to make sure you're aware.

GIMR,

When you have time and only if you feel like it, could you pull out some of richard's quotes that bothered you the most? And however you choose to take this....could you try to relax? I say that out of sincere and honest concern. I'll be back in a while to see if you've responded.

Jersey Girl