More on Literalism, by Spong

[_Roger Morrison]

Below is the short last paragraph of Spong's latest News Letter. It summarizes his thoughts on a CBS Easter Panel discussion that seeemed, as many panels do, to be little but time-slot-fillers. This one squeezed between The Easter Bunny and some other current topic... I think this paragraph is worth considering...

I live, however, in a world where bodily resuscitations, complete with angels coming out of the sky to roll away the stone in front of Jesus' tomb and to place the Temple guard around that tomb into a state of unconsciousness; or stories in which virgins conceive and stars wander through the sky so slowly that wise men can follow them are unbelievable. If that is what Christianity requires then fewer and fewer citizens of the 21st century will continue to be disciples of Jesus or worshipers of the God experienced in Jesus' life. So I will continue to use even brief media opportunities to let the world know that there are Christians who are not literalists and there are profoundly different ways to understand Jesus far beyond those arrived at by literalizing an ancient text. I can easily dismiss time bound and time-warped explanations. That does not mean that I dismiss the experience that my ancestors in faith sought to explain. John Shelby Spong

This too, is the world i inhabit. How about You? Warm regards, Roger

[_The Nehor]

They weren't unbelievable back then?

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

They weren't unbelievable back then?

Back then, all the important saviors of the world (dozens of them) were born of virgins. No big deal.

Actually, I'm not sure whether people back then actually believed the stuff or whether they simply understood it all to be mythology and took it on that basis.

[_richardMdBorn]

Spong's attitude is similar to Voltaire's in the 18th Century

Voltaire, the eighteenth-century French philosopher, predicted the demise of the Bible in the light of modern rationalism. Fifty years after he died, his old home in France was used as a storage and distribution center for the Geneva Bible Society. Now, two centuries later, the Bible is more widely read than ever before.

http://www.rzim.org/slice/slicetran.php?sliceid=1090

It's a bit like the search for the historical Jesus. The Jesus scholars "found" held views that were similar to their own. Spong argues that his views will predominate in the future. Yet the churches that share his views are losing members rapidly. In Europe, Muslims may well be a majority in this century. And America will probably continue to be a very religious country including horrible people like me who believe in the biblical miracles.

Richard

[_Roger Morrison]

Spong's attitude is similar to Voltaire's in the 18th Century

Voltaire, the eighteenth-century French philosopher, predicted the demise of the Bible in the light of modern rationalism. Fifty years after he died, his old home in France was used as a storage and distribution center for the Geneva Bible Society. Now, two centuries later, the Bible is more widely read than ever before.

http://www.rzim.org/slice/slicetran.php?sliceid=1090

It's a bit like the search for the historical Jesus. The Jesus scholars "found" held views that were similar to their own. Spong argues that his views will predominate in the future. Yet the churches that share his views are losing members rapidly. In Europe, Muslims may well be a majority in this century. And America will probably continue to be a very religious country including horrible people like me who believe in the biblical miracles.

Richard

Richard, sorry you defame yourself, & others, "who believe in the biblical miracles..."--if only in jest?? Whether one believes or disbelieves, is a literalist or not, is secondary to how one uderstands the principles of "charity" rather than the idea of "eternal life & salvation," IMSCO...

Voltaire, also THE statesman, is most famous for saying, "...while i disagree vehemently with what you say, i will defend with my last breath your right to say it..." Or something to that effect.

I think it is in this light that Spong, and others, are critical of the "Five Fundamentals that define A Christian" as drawn by the Sectarian, not "Christian", World. Threatened by Secularism, that seemed in many ways more representative of the Christian Spirit, Churchism resorted to promoting the Letter to maintain their hold on the Holy, as they perceive(d) it.

Might, "believe what you will, but do what is right--towards humanity," be more Christian than not? Warm regards, Roger

[_The Nehor]

Back then, all the important saviors of the world (dozens of them) were born of virgins. No big deal.

Actually, I'm not sure whether people back then actually believed the stuff or whether they simply understood it all to be mythology and took it on that basis.

I'm failing to see the distinction. People accepted back then that women didn't get pregnant without intercourse with a man unless the supernatural was involved. Joseph was ready to put away Mary. Apparantly it was a big deal as Jewish critics of the Early Christian Church endeavored to prove that Christ was the son of a whore and a Roman soldier. They knew what was miraculous and what was not as well as we do. Some suggest they were more credulous back then in which case I advise watching this clip: http://www.glumbert.com/media/televangelist

We are hardly a rational civilization. My dad has the same name as one of the people in the clip and we lived in the same areas. I took calls from his followers growing up. Wow.

I have my doubts that the intricate knowledge of the reproductive process would have changed Joseph's perception of the situation with Mary.

Saying you've never seen a miracle is not proof that they don't happen. Everyone I know who has seen what they believe to be conclusively supernatural miracles gets shot down by comparison with other unexplainable events. Neither side can win.

[_richardMdBorn]

Roger
Voltaire, also THE statesman, is most famous for saying, "...while I disagree vehemently with what you say, I will defend with my last breath your right to say it..." Or something to that effect.

That's an urban legend. See http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/331.html

Roger I think it is in this light that Spong, and others, are critical of the "Five Fundamentals that define A Christian" as drawn by the Sectarian, not "Christian", World. Threatened by Secularism, that seemed in many ways more representative of the Christian Spirit, Churchism resorted to promoting the Letter to maintain their hold on the Holy, as they perceive(d) it.

The fight in the early 20th C was against modernists in the church, not secularists.

[_Sam Harris]

Below is the short last paragraph of Spong's latest News Letter. It summarizes his thoughts on a CBS Easter Panel discussion that seeemed, as many panels do, to be little but time-slot-fillers. This one squeezed between The Easter Bunny and some other current topic... I think this paragraph is worth considering...

I live, however, in a world where bodily resuscitations, complete with angels coming out of the sky to roll away the stone in front of Jesus' tomb and to place the Temple guard around that tomb into a state of unconsciousness; or stories in which virgins conceive and stars wander through the sky so slowly that wise men can follow them are unbelievable. If that is what Christianity requires then fewer and fewer citizens of the 21st century will continue to be disciples of Jesus or worshipers of the God experienced in Jesus' life. So I will continue to use even brief media opportunities to let the world know that there are Christians who are not literalists and there are profoundly different ways to understand Jesus far beyond those arrived at by literalizing an ancient text. I can easily dismiss time bound and time-warped explanations. That does not mean that I dismiss the experience that my ancestors in faith sought to explain. John Shelby Spong

This too, is the world I inhabit. How about You? Warm regards, Roger

Same here. I once stated that if the bones of Jesus were ever found, my faith would not change. It's about the example, not the miracles to me. I've seen enough miracles in my life, hell I'm alive. I should not be, given what I just went through only a few weeks ago. There's something compelling in the message of Christ, it has lasted 2,000 years. You mean to tell me that what has drawn people over the centuries is ony one thing, the hope in the truth of someone being raised from the dead? It's a beautiful thing to think on, but when you get down to everyday life, sometimes that just fades into the distance. What about the teachings? So many of those people who go and shout each week about how they know He's coming back, are the same people who want to run around and act like they have no idea what He taught about how to treat other people, especially sinners. Those who fall out and shout the quickest are often the most judgemental. That is sad.

Forgive me for sitting quietly in the back and keeping to myself.

[_Sam Harris]

Voltaire, also THE statesman, is most famous for saying, "...while I disagree vehemently with what you say, I will defend with my last breath your right to say it..." Or something to that effect.

Strange, that while this was seen as an urban legend, it was found in one of my textbooks this semester, and I'm sure the gentleman who has gone through several editions of editing this thing would have found such an error.

But of course the insistence that the above was never said is coming from someone who could never adopt such a stance anyway.