Is salvation arbitrary or dependent upon our works?

[_maklelan]

I've been invited to return to this board and I figured I'd give it a shot. I was recently listening to a radio interview with Bill Keller and Scott Gordon and I got riled up by some things that Mr. Keller said. I'm curious about how people deal with the issue of grace v. works, but not in the usual scriptural way. In my estimation, salvation can be either utterly and completely arbitrary or it can be contingent upon our works. Whether salvation comes because we decide to believe, because we have faith, or because we follow the commandments, it is dependent upon actions that we perform. Whether it's a small action, or a mental one, or it's a lifetime of action, if you have to make any effort whatsoever to receive salvation it is not a "free gift," it is earned. Having faith requires you do something. Believing requires you do something. If faith is all that is required then there is still a requirement that I have to go out and fulfill, meaning I earn the saving grace. The only other option is that faith and salvation are utterly arbitrary. They are given to whomever God wants with absolutely no regard whatsoever for anything they have done. I don't want to believe in a God who sends one person to Hell and another to Heaven for no reason whatsoever, but it seems many people do. So which is it? Is salvation dependent upon our works or is it the arbitrary whim of God?

[_Runtu]

I've been invited to return to this board and I figured I'd give it a shot. I was recently listening to a radio interview with Bill Keller and Scott Gordon and I got riled up by some things that Mr. Keller said. I'm curious about how people deal with the issue of grace v. works, but not in the usual scriptural way. In my estimation, salvation can be either utterly and completely arbitrary or it can be contingent upon our works. Whether salvation comes because we decide to believe, because we have faith, or because we follow the commandments, it is dependent upon actions that we perform. Whether it's a small action, or a mental one, or it's a lifetime of action, if you have to make any effort whatsoever to receive salvation it is not a "free gift," it is earned. Having faith requires you do something. Believing requires you do something. If faith is all that is required then there is still a requirement that I have to go out and fulfill, meaning I earn the saving grace. The only other option is that faith and salvation are utterly arbitrary. They are given to whomever God wants with absolutely no regard whatsoever for anything they have done. I don't want to believe in a God who sends one person to Hell and another to Heaven for no reason whatsoever, but it seems many people do. So which is it? Is salvation dependent upon our works or is it the arbitrary whim of God?

I've never understood why it had to be an all-or-nothing proposition. I always believed that faith, grace, and works were inseparable. The LDS Bible dictionary, under "Grace," says that grace is what enables us to do the works that we couldn't sustain on our own. So the works are the products of both our faith and God's grace, so you can't really separate who is doing what. I think Paul's talk about grace was intended to remind us that our works are in part not our own, and James' statements about works are reminders that faith and works are intertwined tightly.

Does that make any sense at all?

[_maklelan]

I've never understood why it had to be an all-or-nothing proposition. I always believed that faith, grace, and works were inseparable. The LDS Bible dictionary, under "Grace," says that grace is what enables us to do the works that we couldn't sustain on our own. So the works are the products of both our faith and God's grace, so you can't really separate who is doing what. I think Paul's talk about grace was intended to remind us that our works are in part not our own, and James' statements about works are reminders that faith and works are intertwined tightly.

Does that make any sense at all?

That definitely makes sense, and I believe that our faith and our works play off each other. I do think there's a distinction between an idea that good works are the mere outcome of salvation and the idea that faith is nurtured through our works. But when Christians say that it is a free gift and it is given irrespective of what we do, they are saying that salvation is then arbitrary. I don't believe they have considered the implications of that doctrine. I believe they're just lashing out at a perspective they are not allowed to accept and they have grossly overcompensated. I would like someone to explain to me how salvation can be achieved through absolutely no effort or action on our part and can still not be utterly and completely arbitrary.

[_Runtu]

That definitely makes sense, and I believe that our faith and our works play off each other. I do think there's a distinction between an idea that good works are the mere outcome of salvation and the idea that faith is nurtured through our works. But when Christians say that it is a free gift and it is given irrespective of what we do, they are saying that salvation is then arbitrary. I don't believe they have considered the implications of that doctrine.

Some of them have. They are called Calvinists. It seems to me that Calvinism is the logical conclusion of grace-only salvation. I find the implications rather horrifying, but Calvinists don't. Like you, I find the God who chooses the elect to be rather arbitrary, indeed.

I believe they're just lashing out at a perspective they are not allowed to accept and they have grossly overcompensated. I would like someone to explain to me how salvation can be achieved through absolutely no effort or action on our part and can still not be utterly and completely arbitrary.

I don't want to mindread, but I think for many people, granting any weight to works smacks of ingratitude for the atonement. But if the ability to do the works is contingent on the atonement/grace, then we still must be grateful.

[_maklelan]

I don't want to mindread, but I think for many people, granting any weight to works smacks of ingratitude for the atonement. But if the ability to do the works is contingent on the atonement/grace, then we still must be grateful.

I've heard this said before, but I don't get it. If I have to work for something how does it diminish my gratitude for it?

[_Runtu]

I've heard this said before, but I don't get it. If I have to work for something how does it diminish my gratitude for it?

I don't get it, either. But that's what I've heard from people. It's kind of like receiving a toolset and lumber as a gift. If you build a house with the tools and lumber, is the house more or less of a gift? I'd argue it's more of a gift.

[_maklelan]

Agreed. I'm gonna post this at MAD and see if any of the EV's over there have anything to say. Hopefully someone else will respond here. I don't know how many Evangelicals we have here, though.

[_Mercury]

The real question is if salvation is a false construct. I of course say yes.

[_Bond...James Bond]

I've been invited to return to this board and I figured I'd give it a shot. I was recently listening to a radio interview with Bill Keller and Scott Gordon and I got riled up by some things that Mr. Keller said. I'm curious about how people deal with the issue of grace v. works, but not in the usual scriptural way. In my estimation, salvation can be either utterly and completely arbitrary or it can be contingent upon our works. Whether salvation comes because we decide to believe, because we have faith, or because we follow the commandments, it is dependent upon actions that we perform. Whether it's a small action, or a mental one, or it's a lifetime of action, if you have to make any effort whatsoever to receive salvation it is not a "free gift," it is earned. Having faith requires you do something. Believing requires you do something. If faith is all that is required then there is still a requirement that I have to go out and fulfill, meaning I earn the saving grace. The only other option is that faith and salvation are utterly arbitrary. They are given to whomever God wants with absolutely no regard whatsoever for anything they have done. I don't want to believe in a God who sends one person to Hell and another to Heaven for no reason whatsoever, but it seems many people do. So which is it? Is salvation dependent upon our works or is it the arbitrary whim of God?

Alright I'm not feeling too religious at the moment, but in my younger days I always thought that if a person was truly "Christlike" they would be out doing "works" type stuff because they are naturally moved toward being charitable because they were Christian. The whole "grace alone" thing seems like a big "Get Outta Hell Free" card. All a person has to do is profess belief, and they're good. Doing works should show that actions speak louder than words in this issue. I think they go hand in hand.

Hope that makes sense.

[_Who Knows]

I don't get it, either. But that's what I've heard from people. It's kind of like receiving a toolset and lumber as a gift. If you build a house with the tools and lumber, is the house more or less of a gift? I'd argue it's more of a gift.

Let me preface by saying that I don't believe any of this. But if I did, I might say something like this:

In your example runtu, the gift would actually be a completely finished, beautiful house. And then you turn around and re-paint the walls, because you think it'll add to the beauty and value of the house. You're basically saying "gee, thanks for the house, but I think it can be better."

How would that make the person who gave you the house feel?

Again, I'm just trying to think of an example where 'works' might show ingratitude.