"WHERE ELSE COULD WE GO?.."

[_barrelomonkeys]

That does help. Really sounds like a great support system. I'm not certain how much I would like it. But I'm sure for lots of women it is pretty helpful.

In a way, it could be representative of benefits/problems with LDS membership in general. When a member is in need, the LDS church already has an intact support system that can kick in immediately. This is particularly evident in a disaster (like Katrina).

At the same time, there is a certain "formula", so to speak, of "how to be a Mormon woman" (or how to be a Mormon in general) that can chafe individuals who do not fit within that formula, and there is a possibility that the network intended to support can be used to control and abuse, as well.

Resigning from my position as "visiting teacher" (all active females are expected to be VT) was a deliberate act (encouraged by my nonLDS therapist, who obviously felt I should just find a healthier church in general, ie, one that was less demanding and controlling) of independence on my part. It was just too much. I had three kids under four, worked full time, did not have a helpful spouse, and I just could not handle being 'responsible' for other sisters, who lived spread over a big area. It's probably easier in Utah, where a ward's boundaries are often withing walking distance blocks, but back east, where I live, and there are few members, quite a bit of time and driving is required (as well as figuring out babysitting for the kids). My relief society president was shocked. It (refusing to be a VT) just "wasn't done".

Well, I did it, and I had to for my sanity.

I know my step-son's mother always talks about how busy she is. I usually think to myself, "yah, right!" We have the same number of children, all of my kids have extracurricular activities they do and I work outside of the home. After hearing about this she probably is exhausted. I remember one time she was supposed to go somewhere and went into a crying jag because she couldn't find a babysitter. This really puts it into perspective for me. Bless her heart. I'm going to send her some flowers.

You seem like a very strong willed woman! Good for you for putting your foot down.

[_beastie]

You're a great step-mom, Book of Mormon - you have gone to great extents to try and understand your stepson, and you've frequently shown compassion towards his parents. Good for you!

I should qualify my statements by saying that this was my experience in the "mission field", (outside the Mormon corridor of Utah, Idaho, Nevada, CA) - members are few and far between, and since the LDS church has no paid ministry, often a fairly small population of the active members of an already small ward are trying to fill the same positions that a large ward in utah would have. It's not uncommon to have three callings at a time, and some of those callings (church jobs) really are almost part time jobs themselves.

The LDS church taught me to grow a backbone and say no for my own mental health (and I still do today). It didn't do this by overtly teaching me to do so, in fact, quite the opposite. I was taught it was wrong, weak, and maybe even sinful to turn down callings. The Bishop was "inspired" to call you to that position, that meant God wanted you to do it. I learned to say no because, otherwise, the church would have continued to have consumed mass amounts of time, leaving me stressed and my kids paying the price.

Speaking of crying jags, here's one funny story (funny in retrospect). Shortly before my exhusband was called to be a counselor in the bishopric, during one of my worthiness interviews with the stake president, he asked me how I would feel about my husband being called as bishop. I was so shocked by the question I just stammered something about having difficulties getting three little kids ready for church all alone (bishoprics meet early sunday morning, before regular meetings start, in my ward, at least). He laughed and said "as long as it's not because you're locked in the bathroom crying!!!"

I didn't think it was funny. He thought it was hilarious. I suppose he'd just had his fill of whiny Mormon women crying about their absent husbands, leaving them alone, once again, to deal with the kids.

[_Roger Morrison]

If it makes you feel any better, I never use the pre-packaged lessons. Only if its a last minute type deal where the teacher didn't make it, and then only if I don't have an old lesson I made in a pocket in my scripture tote.

Tell ya what, you give me a topic to teach in priesthood next sunday, and that's the lesson I'll give. I'll post the lesson I make fresh in the Celestial room.

OK Gaz, how about, "Adam's rib, is it fib or fact that Eve's whole female body was created from one male rib?" Please don't use Genesis reference, unless desperate. Latterday revelation? Precedence? Is this sort'a like those seeking a sign, or one offering a sign being 'EVIL' ???;-) Warm regards, Roger

[_harmony]

What does the relief society do?

Things have changed since Trixie (beastie) left the church. Relief Society is one of those things that have changed.

We no longer have Homemaking Meeting once a month. It's called Enrichment now, and it's held as needed. The classes taught are at the whim of the sisters involved. Each ward determines what the classes will be and how often it will be held. The ward also decides where the class will be held (at the church, or at one of the homes). It's much more flexible now.

Visiting teaching is still the backbone of Relief Society. My RS President was also shocked that I wanted to be released from that calling earlier this spring. She was quite resistent, and even told me that phone calls or emails counted, as if it was okay for me to do a half-baked job instead of doing it right. It was only when I threatened to go to the bishop and tell him to release me from my other calling (webmaster/bulletin publisher) that she relented. It simply caused me too much stress when coupled with the major stress at work currently, resulting in a nose-dive of my health.

Weekly lessons on Sunday are taught, but we no longer have lessons on women in church history. We have 2 lessons on whichever prophet is being studied throughout the year (this year's prophet is Spencer W Kimball). The last Sunday of the month is reserved for a lesson based on a conference address (called "Teaching For Our Time"). And of course, the first Sunday of the month is Fast Sunday, so the president gives the message then opens the floor for testimonies.

[_barrelomonkeys]

You're a great step-mom, Book of Mormon - you have gone to great extents to try and understand your stepson, and you've frequently shown compassion towards his parents. Good for you!

I should qualify my statements by saying that this was my experience in the "mission field", (outside the Mormon corridor of Utah, Idaho, Nevada, CA) - members are few and far between, and since the LDS church has no paid ministry, often a fairly small population of the active members of an already small ward are trying to fill the same positions that a large ward in utah would have. It's not uncommon to have three callings at a time, and some of those callings (church jobs) really are almost part time jobs themselves.

The LDS church taught me to grow a backbone and say no for my own mental health (and I still do today). It didn't do this by overtly teaching me to do so, in fact, quite the opposite. I was taught it was wrong, weak, and maybe even sinful to turn down callings. The Bishop was "inspired" to call you to that position, that meant God wanted you to do it. I learned to say no because, otherwise, the church would have continued to have consumed mass amounts of time, leaving me stressed and my kids paying the price.

Speaking of crying jags, here's one funny story (funny in retrospect). Shortly before my exhusband was called to be a counselor in the bishopric, during one of my worthiness interviews with the stake president, he asked me how I would feel about my husband being called as bishop. I was so shocked by the question I just stammered something about having difficulties getting three little kids ready for church all alone (bishoprics meet early sunday morning, before regular meetings start, in my ward, at least). He laughed and said "as long as it's not because you're locked in the bathroom crying!!!"

I didn't think it was funny. He thought it was hilarious. I suppose he'd just had his fill of whiny Mormon women crying about their absent husbands, leaving them alone, once again, to deal with the kids.

I don't know how great a step-mom I am. It's sort of hard loving your husband and his ex always being a part of your life. It's probably something I will have to work through forever. It helps that it's my second marriage and I try to sympathize with her to some point. Oh well. Life is complicated. :)

What's a worthiness interview? It seems there are so many things that I know nothing about. Sometimes when I read these boards it is so confusing. It's like a different language is used and a culture totally foreign to me is being spoken of.

[_barrelomonkeys]

What does the relief society do?

Things have changed since Trixie (beastie) left the church. Relief Society is one of those things that have changed.

We no longer have Homemaking Meeting once a month. It's called Enrichment now, and it's held as needed. The classes taught are at the whim of the sisters involved. Each ward determines what the classes will be and how often it will be held. The ward also decides where the class will be held (at the church, or at one of the homes). It's much more flexible now.

Visiting teaching is still the backbone of Relief Society. My RS President was also shocked that I wanted to be released from that calling earlier this spring. She was quite resistent, and even told me that phone calls or emails counted, as if it was okay for me to do a half-baked job instead of doing it right. It was only when I threatened to go to the bishop and tell him to release me from my other calling (webmaster/bulletin publisher) that she relented. It simply caused me too much stress when coupled with the major stress at work currently, resulting in a nose-dive of my health.

Weekly lessons on Sunday are taught, but we no longer have lessons on women in church history. We have 2 lessons on whichever prophet is being studied throughout the year (this year's prophet is Spencer W Kimball). The last Sunday of the month is reserved for a lesson based on a conference address (called "Teaching For Our Time"). And of course, the first Sunday of the month is Fast Sunday, so the president gives the message then opens the floor for testimonies.

Thanks for the description. When women first join LDS what usually happens?

[_harmony]

What's a worthiness interview?

Every youth (12-18) has a worthiness interview with the bishop around their birthday every year. College students who attend BYU or it's many branches also have a similiar interview. Prospective missionaries have them. Adults who want a temple recommend have them a minimum of every two years.

They consist of a series of questions asked a member of the bishopric, probing such things as sexual practices, including between consenting adults and married couples, commitment to the church, and if the member pays their tithing. Teens are a favorite target of worthiness interviews. The second interview is performed by a member of the stake presidency.

If you thought your fantasies were yours alone, think again. They're fair game during a worthiness interview.

It seems there are so many things that I know nothing about. Sometimes when I read these boards it is so confusing. It's like a different language is used and a culture totally foreign to me is being spoken of.

No doubt. And you'd be right, too.

[_harmony]

When women first join LDS what usually happens?

They have an interview with the bishop, where they're usually given a calling, usually as a Visiting Teacher, sometimes as another calling too, like Primary worker. If they have a talent like playing the piano, they may get to attend RS and not be stuck in Primary or the nursery (both thankless callings). They'll be welcomed into RS, be introduced to the group, and hopefully someone will sit by them (I've seen it when they were ignored completely, though). Someone will gently point out that Mormon women always wear their dresses down to their knees or below, and always have sleeves, in case the poor woman is wearing a sundress. If she wears that dress again, she'll be the target of some not so subtle whispering about her bare shoulders. She'll be assigned visiting teachers, who will make an appointment prior to visiting her (maybe), and will only stay for 20 minutes (if she's lucky), and will give her a lesson.

It will be months before anyone remembers her name or invites her to participate in anything outside of church hours.

[_Sam Harris]

My wife (TBM) was telling me about a few more people in the ward that have asked to be released from their callings as well as another newly returned missionary that has gone inactive. It seems that once a Mormon (that places a high value on honesty, integrity and morality) has discovered the duplicitous nature of those they have trusted, they find it difficult to participate in the organization. At least they need some time to think things over before making further life changing decisions.

Well, my wife then said something that she has repeated often in our conversations (I’m paraphrasing here): “If you leave the church, where else would you go to keep your family from falling into immorality? There is no other church on earth that places such emphasis on family and living righteously”.

I’m discovering that this is an argument among Mormons that frightens members not just to have their names on the books but to be remain active members.

I am reminded of the movie/novel “The Village” (by M. Night Shyamalan). Members of the community were discouraged to venture beyond the town’s bounderies because of the perceived and even real dangers created by the village elders.

Why is it that there are no other churches or organizations (outside of the Mormon church) that do so much to emphasize and preserve traditional moral family values? Well, perhaps there are. Just because a Mormon has been told there aren’t doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

According to the elders, parents will fail in their nurturing without the assistance of "the church" - it does “take a village".

I understand that many of us place a great deal of value upon a sense of community where we desire to share common ideals with those we surround ourselves with. But does it really take a church, an organization or a Village to raise a child (or even a family) - protecting them from the real and even perceived dangers that lurk beyond it’s bounds?




Comments?

The Village ticked me off royally, mainly because I was still struggling as an LDS when I saw it, and saw so much of my (and others') experiences within the church in it. I left the theater shaking my head and thinking, "that's just like the church".

I have a friend who swears up and down that if she hadn't become LDS, she'd be dead. So she deals with the racism, she deals with the loneliness, she deals with the rejection....all because someone convinced her that life wasn't worth living if you weren't Mormon.

I have another friend who swears up and down that he "doesn't know how everyone else does it, because they don't have the priesthood", but somehow they've got to be good, moral people. It irritates me at times, but I usually leave him in his fantasy land. The few times that I've reamed him, he took a while to recover, and I just feel it's not worth it.

I don't think it takes a village or a church to be moral, good, or even raise a family. I do not get to go to church often because of my health. When I do get to my church, the people I know are happy to see me, but I feel the make too big of a deal over "how long its been" (you try having a stroke, not to mention being in pain every freaking day, tired most of the time, and see how easily you can trek the 20 miles I require to church). I feel that one can commune with God at any time, so I don't place a whole lot of weight on being in church each week. I miss my pastor's sermons, but I'm at a point where I just have to be resourceful. And it's a blessing, because there are some things within religion that pastor/teacher/preacher/whatever just aren't going to tell you, because it makes you think and question. And from what I've seen growing up, thinking, questioning people don't make the most enraptured audiences in church. Who wants to preach a sermon where someone stands up and contradicts them, or where the congregation grows smaller each week because folks know pastor is shafting them?

I think there is a lot of fear-based manipulation in Mormonism and also within fundamentalist Christianity. You're not a good religionist if you do certain things. I'm not a good Christian because I refuse to see homosexuals as d*** near animals. I'm not a good Christian because I want to not just read the English version of a Latin version of a Greek and Hebrew text, I want to get to the point where I can read those other three languages, and know a good bit about the cultures that the writers of the Bible lived in. Not only that, but I refuse to write off other faiths, regardless of what pastor or other people who "know the Bible" have to say. Memorization doesn't equate knowledge, in my book. I'm sorry.

I took a class last year that stated that many religious people live in a state of dualism, they have the sacred and they have the profane. They think that by separating life according to their perceptions, that they're pleasing God, but in reality all they're doing is fragmenting God's creation. They think that the concept of sin is an autonomous thing, instead of seeing it as something that perverts reality. A prostitute is still a human being. Alcoholism is not due just to drinking alcohol, there are emotional and psychological ramifications behind it. There are things in life that are just plain wrong, but there are also things in life that one must step back and think about. Example: I know people who will only listen to Gospel music or Contemporary Christian music, swearing that everything else is "of the Devil". I'm sorry, but I like me some Commodores, Peaches & Herb, Martina McBride, Boyz II Men (in concert day after my birthday!!!!), Ella Fitzgerald, and Aerosmith, just to name a very small few. God created the melody in my belief, man creates the words and the intent behind them. There is no such thing as an "evil melody" (though I came across a Mormon once who swore there was). So I'm not putting down my Fugees today. I feel I can listen to that and some Barlow Girl and still keep my integrity in tact.

Humans are too afraid of each other and their surroundings. You'd think we were still naked and extrememly hairy, running around beating our food to death.

[_Sam Harris]

I have a friend who is not your typical Chapel Mormon, but not quite an internet Mo either. She still believes the basic claims of the church and loves the culture. She is always trying to reactivate me and one of her main points has always been "it's a great place to raise your kids." Her belief is that there is no other church with a youth program like the LDS one, and there is no other faith that comes close to LDS on keeping the youth morally clean, honest, etc. She usually brings up statistics and anytime the church is in the news I get to hear about it. I agree that the LDS church does place a high value on family and values (although they are in complete conflict with plural marriage) but I haven't ever been to another church in my entire life and neither has she. For me, this is the toughest part of leaving the church. How will I raise my kids without the youth program and family value based culture? I have family who are no longer believers but remain active for this reason.

Seven, there are a lot of intelligent, rational folks on this board, and I'm sure if they have kids, they're doing a fine job.

The LDS church has no monopoly on youth programs, in fact, I would say that many of the mainstream Christian churches today are upping the ante on youth groups (starting very early, kindergarten age to teen), because they see that society is not always the safest place to leave your kids alone. My church has an amazing youth program, they have resources for the kids, every tuesday night the youth come out to church, they get taught, they play games, they get to know each other. This is for kids from about ages 11-18 (pastor feels that any younger, you need to be at home in bed). Sundays the kids are off having fun together and learning what we learn that day, but packaged differently. I once worked at a huge United Methodist megachurch (about 3,000 members) that had a place called kidzone, they had nurseries for infants, and resources for the parents for every age group up to about 14-15. I was in the room with the 2-year-olds (can't believe I got paid to have so much fun!), and they were taught too, a ten-minute lesson from "Baby Bible". All they did was learn about a good character trait from a Bible character (like David, for example), and they were given sheets to color for the rest of the time.

If someone really wants to raise their kids in a church environment outside the LDS church, all you need to do is hop churches on sunday, ask questions. If you don't, then trust yourself and do it on your own. Either way, the ultimate responsibility is on the parent.