Roger I don't see how God has to be necessarily unjust for killing this child. According to the gospel as I've learned it, death is a part of the plan of happiness. Couple that with the doctrine that all children who die under age 8 are unconditionally saved and it's not looking like such a bad deal. We don't know all the eternal ramifications of God killing this child nor how this child would be blessed. From an eternal perspective, I don't see how this necessarily implies an unjust God.
Children, people, and every kind of living thing die every day. God saves some according to Christian doctrine and not others. Yet this doesn't have to mean he's unjust. God himself allowed himself to be slain. The story of Job doesn't seem very fair from a strictly earthly perspective. Yet I deal with this by applying the LDS idea of eternal progression, experience, and the idea that all things can work together for our good through Jesus Christ. Now if I were to have to accept a strict saved by grace theology with no works nor personally earned progression involved then I would have a much more difficult time seeing justice in this story. I see people like Job as being very advanced in their progression and perhaps this child of David's as well.
I'll admit that I don't quite understand all the philosophy behind "punishment.' I've heard some say that we make our own punishment, yet here God is clearly making the punishment and dishing it out.
"This is NOT the word of the Lord!"
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_Roger Morrison
- _Emeritus
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- Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am
Hi Ajax, you said:
I'm not sure which "child" you are refering to, but: It appears as if you are TBM in your belief of an omni-"God" with a "plan of salvation". Correct? IMSCO, there is no such plan.
THE "plan" is a construct of primitive thinking that expresses an imagined physiological superiority of of the human species--an ego trip if you will--steming from the Genesis fable.
In all honesty, the only difference between humanoids and nones is our thinking, and imagination, distinction. This human-difference allows us to think/imagine ourselves into some wonderous situations. Many very practical, positive, order-out-of-chaos sort of situations advancing our human society. OTOH, the same faculty leads us into brutish, inhumane, impractical, destructive, escapist thinking and actions.
As all creatures we are born to die. Between these two events we eat, excrete, propagate and nurture our species to positive or negative ends; usually a combination of both resulting in some semblance of satifying happiness. Unfortunately this state of being is too often established on false premises of our over active imaginarions.
I respectfully suggest the religiously defined "Plan-of-Salvation" is one of those human constructs created to ease the difficulties of the realities of life, and death.
I 'think' it was to this end--knowing the truth-- that Jesus, as a practical spiritual guru, attempted to direct humanity in a more possitive direction so that they/we would see all humanoids as subject to the same universal laws that base the reality of existance. IF one chooses to credit this to a theological "God", so be it. BUT understand this is a deity without favourites, prejudices or discrimination who/that 'works' with natural-laws. Science knows this. Religion has yet to admit it... Warm regards, Roger
Roger I don't see how God has to be necessarily unjust for killing this child. According to the gospel as I've learned it, death is a part of the plan of happiness. Couple that with the doctrine that all children who die under age 8 are unconditionally saved and it's not looking like such a bad deal. We don't know all the eternal ramifications of God killing this child nor how this child would be blessed. From an eternal perspective, I don't see how this necessarily implies an unjust God.
I'm not sure which "child" you are refering to, but: It appears as if you are TBM in your belief of an omni-"God" with a "plan of salvation". Correct? IMSCO, there is no such plan.
THE "plan" is a construct of primitive thinking that expresses an imagined physiological superiority of of the human species--an ego trip if you will--steming from the Genesis fable.
In all honesty, the only difference between humanoids and nones is our thinking, and imagination, distinction. This human-difference allows us to think/imagine ourselves into some wonderous situations. Many very practical, positive, order-out-of-chaos sort of situations advancing our human society. OTOH, the same faculty leads us into brutish, inhumane, impractical, destructive, escapist thinking and actions.
As all creatures we are born to die. Between these two events we eat, excrete, propagate and nurture our species to positive or negative ends; usually a combination of both resulting in some semblance of satifying happiness. Unfortunately this state of being is too often established on false premises of our over active imaginarions.
I respectfully suggest the religiously defined "Plan-of-Salvation" is one of those human constructs created to ease the difficulties of the realities of life, and death.
I 'think' it was to this end--knowing the truth-- that Jesus, as a practical spiritual guru, attempted to direct humanity in a more possitive direction so that they/we would see all humanoids as subject to the same universal laws that base the reality of existance. IF one chooses to credit this to a theological "God", so be it. BUT understand this is a deity without favourites, prejudices or discrimination who/that 'works' with natural-laws. Science knows this. Religion has yet to admit it... Warm regards, Roger
I'm not contesting what you've just stated in the last post. I understand your position and as far as I can see it's scientifically sound. I mean if God doesn't exist anyway it's kind of hard to find any evil or good out of Him more than what is in our own imaginations.
What I'm taking issue with is this:
He's criticizing the religious idea of God, as if we've purposely created an unjust God to satisfy our own lusts. I disagree with him on this. Given an eternal perspective, this idea of God is not necessarily cruel or unjust. Neither is God evil because he chooses to allow us to live in a world that is predominantly fallen and painful. It seemed to me like the scriptures were really pretty harsh with King David. The writers had every reason to exalt David as high as God himself. He was the greatest military hero Israel ever had. The scriptures seem to clearly say that nobody is above the law. I don't know of many other religions that were this fair with a prominent conqueror. The Romans saw Caesar as god and practically above fault. The Eqyptians saw their leaders as beyond error, you know, the "God in flesh" garbage.
While my views may sound very TBM to you, I find that most Mormon people have very different ideas about God and the ultimate meaning of life. That's why I label most of what I say as my own philosophy. While this may seem like weak doctrine, I now believe that it is really one's own philosophy that drives one through the hardest decisions and trials that life offers, not necessarily a church doctrine, which often seems either silent or contradictory on some of the most pressing questions.
While you could argue that I've created my idea of God to satisfy my lust for justice and eternal happiness, I can't see where you argue that I've used my idea of God to lift myself over other people or even animals or anything at all, living or nonliving. Eternally things can and will work out for the best. I'm not using that idea of eternity as an excuse to cheat people now. I rely on the justice of eternity just as any other man who doesn't have the money to seek redress to every wrong made to him in this life.
We do the best we can with this life, but in the end as far as I'm concerned, this life just isn't good enough. I dream of more.
What I'm taking issue with is this:
What kind of God is this? That was my question. Why should the innocent child be destroyed for the sins of the child's parents?
He's criticizing the religious idea of God, as if we've purposely created an unjust God to satisfy our own lusts. I disagree with him on this. Given an eternal perspective, this idea of God is not necessarily cruel or unjust. Neither is God evil because he chooses to allow us to live in a world that is predominantly fallen and painful. It seemed to me like the scriptures were really pretty harsh with King David. The writers had every reason to exalt David as high as God himself. He was the greatest military hero Israel ever had. The scriptures seem to clearly say that nobody is above the law. I don't know of many other religions that were this fair with a prominent conqueror. The Romans saw Caesar as god and practically above fault. The Eqyptians saw their leaders as beyond error, you know, the "God in flesh" garbage.
While my views may sound very TBM to you, I find that most Mormon people have very different ideas about God and the ultimate meaning of life. That's why I label most of what I say as my own philosophy. While this may seem like weak doctrine, I now believe that it is really one's own philosophy that drives one through the hardest decisions and trials that life offers, not necessarily a church doctrine, which often seems either silent or contradictory on some of the most pressing questions.
While you could argue that I've created my idea of God to satisfy my lust for justice and eternal happiness, I can't see where you argue that I've used my idea of God to lift myself over other people or even animals or anything at all, living or nonliving. Eternally things can and will work out for the best. I'm not using that idea of eternity as an excuse to cheat people now. I rely on the justice of eternity just as any other man who doesn't have the money to seek redress to every wrong made to him in this life.
We do the best we can with this life, but in the end as far as I'm concerned, this life just isn't good enough. I dream of more.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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_Roger Morrison
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1831
- Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am