Lucretia and I were discussing a topic via PM that I think would make for fascinating scholarly discussion in this forum.
After Lucretia left the Church, she took a course which is now available online. This course is called "A Course in Miracles", or ACIM.
This is a link to the Home Page:
http://www.acim.org/index.html
What fascinated me about this course was the premise which Lucretia explained:
"Jesus' message was of love and forgiveness and that God is real but we are living in an illusion and the way back to God is by overcoming our unwillingness to surrender the illusion (ego)"
How does this topic tie in with Mormonism?
Mormons give a lot of lip service to getting beyond ego, but the basic structure of the Church runs like a well-organized company. There are power trips galore that can be gained from callings, etc., which is very similar to the business structure prevalent in corporate America.
I don't know that much about this course, or the premise, other than what Lucretia has told me. But I would be very interested in learning more. I'm hoping that she can enlighten us on this thread, and it can be the catalyst for some interesting discussion between members, non-members, and ex-members alike!
A Course in Miracles
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_The Nehor
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 11832
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am
Ego is complex in the LDS Church. On the one hand we're told we're potential gods and on the other we're told we are nothing. Both are true.
I try to follow King Benjamin who tells us that if we always remember our own nothingness we can rejoice always. I think the only way the bulk of the LDS Church can surrender their ego is to start using that dusty old Atonement thing. It's hard to be arrogant when you're repenting and making REAL contact with God on a daily basis. Unfortunately to far too many LDS (and Christians in general) the talk of nothingness before God is parrot-talk while they privately think God is quite pleased with their religious offerings and thinks them delightful little people instead of internalizing the message of the New Testament and the Book of Mormon that man merits NOTHING.
I try to follow King Benjamin who tells us that if we always remember our own nothingness we can rejoice always. I think the only way the bulk of the LDS Church can surrender their ego is to start using that dusty old Atonement thing. It's hard to be arrogant when you're repenting and making REAL contact with God on a daily basis. Unfortunately to far too many LDS (and Christians in general) the talk of nothingness before God is parrot-talk while they privately think God is quite pleased with their religious offerings and thinks them delightful little people instead of internalizing the message of the New Testament and the Book of Mormon that man merits NOTHING.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
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_truth dancer
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4792
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm
Hi Liz...
Wow, I don't see it.
I see the opposite... think becoming Gods, Goddesses... think blessings of Abraham... think worlds without number....think chosen spirits of God... think CKHL... the One and Only way, powers of God, emphasis on appearance, wealth, elaborate buildings, image of success, very elect, etc. etc. The church is ALL about ego. In all my years of attending church I do not recall one lesson on releasing the ego, understanding unity, or any such thing.
I suppose the natural man (women) idea would be the closest the church comes. But still, the Man (human) of God seems to be all about being elect and chosen and one of Abraham's tribe.
I've read ACIM a vew times and did some of the course work a number of years ago.
I resonate with a lot of its teachings. in my opinion, the essense of its message is, God is Love... fear, ego, eliticism, etc are not of God. One thing I particularly like... ACIM is not about making money, paying for blessings, available for a chosen few, creating wealthy organizations or anything at all like this.
as far as I know, people meet together, discuss it, help each other learn and grow. I find it very similar to the way Jesus taught. I REALLY like this.
But Lulu can fill us in more! :-)
~dancer~
Mormons give a lot of lip service to getting beyond ego,
Wow, I don't see it.
I see the opposite... think becoming Gods, Goddesses... think blessings of Abraham... think worlds without number....think chosen spirits of God... think CKHL... the One and Only way, powers of God, emphasis on appearance, wealth, elaborate buildings, image of success, very elect, etc. etc. The church is ALL about ego. In all my years of attending church I do not recall one lesson on releasing the ego, understanding unity, or any such thing.
I suppose the natural man (women) idea would be the closest the church comes. But still, the Man (human) of God seems to be all about being elect and chosen and one of Abraham's tribe.
I've read ACIM a vew times and did some of the course work a number of years ago.
I resonate with a lot of its teachings. in my opinion, the essense of its message is, God is Love... fear, ego, eliticism, etc are not of God. One thing I particularly like... ACIM is not about making money, paying for blessings, available for a chosen few, creating wealthy organizations or anything at all like this.
as far as I know, people meet together, discuss it, help each other learn and grow. I find it very similar to the way Jesus taught. I REALLY like this.
But Lulu can fill us in more! :-)
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
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_Lucretia MacEvil
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:01 am
Sorry to be late to the party!
You know what, I don't recall ever hearing of any concept of getting beyond ego when I was in the church but I haven't been there for a long, long time (we're talking decades here). I'm wondering if maybe it's due to a shift in vocabulary and what you mean is what we used to call "humility?" The Course concept of ego (or lack of) is much different. The Course doesn't teach humility at all, or pride either, those are non-issues. The Course uses Christian terminology, but uses the terms quite differently. It's actually based more in psychology and Eastern thought. The God of the Course is non-dualistic, which means he's not a God who participates in this world, for one thing. This world is our insane little dream and a God who would participate in it would be as insane as we are. (Don't get all excited by the word "insane," it's just the Course way of saying we made a bad decision to try to separate ourselves from God.)
The Course consists of three parts, the text, the workbook (365 lessons) and the teacher's manual. It is from Jesus. The book is online as well as a great deal of more information, it can be done as self-study or studied in groups. I wish it were so easy as just "taking a course." It's really not easy to "graduate" because the teachings are very difficult, it involves changing our thinking radically and unlearn everything that we think we know. It's a spiritual path, a lifetime study for many people. It claimed me at my first exposure, it's my path, but I'm no expert and I find it difficult to explain the concepts sometimes. I'll do my best if people are interested here, and I'll enjoy doing it, but it's not a missionary kind of path. Sharing the ideas is a good thing, but there is no condemnation for those who do not find or accept.
Having come from Mormonism myself, with all the ideas about revelation and restoration, the Course is just that in its way. However, it turns Christianity upside down (and Mormonism pretty much any religion as far as I know along with it). It sets a few of the alleged sayings of Jesus straight, for example, the Bible says 'revenge is mine,' but what I was really saying is that if you will turn over to me your thoughts of revenge, I will make them disappear' (not an exact quote). It's about turning our thoughts of attack into thoughts of love.
In my experience, with the Mormons around me, family and friends, their reaction to the Course is quite hostile and defensive. According to my sister, "it's amazing how far Satan will go to deceive us." The Course is antithetical to Mormonism because it jerks away most of what it holds dear, everything that makes them special.
I want to tell you this one thing. I have a friend here who is a Course student and comes from a Reorganized Mormon background. He is active in the Community of Christ still, socially, and he facilitates a Course study group there. I went once. Most of the people were members of the CoC. Here were these darling old guys who talked about priesthood and callings and sounded just like the Mormons I knew back when. THey were loving the Course too, but were only undestanding it superficially because they were trying to reconcile it with their Mormon beliefs. And that's just perfectly okay. It was quite touching for me, actually. They were open enough to something new from Jesus to study it in their church.
I can't see that happening with the LDS, please let me know if it does! You hear a lot of talk about Mormonism being open to anything that is good, but in practice it is very closed to different ideas and threatened by them.
I hope this isn't too rambling and incoherent. Let's discuss!
You know what, I don't recall ever hearing of any concept of getting beyond ego when I was in the church but I haven't been there for a long, long time (we're talking decades here). I'm wondering if maybe it's due to a shift in vocabulary and what you mean is what we used to call "humility?" The Course concept of ego (or lack of) is much different. The Course doesn't teach humility at all, or pride either, those are non-issues. The Course uses Christian terminology, but uses the terms quite differently. It's actually based more in psychology and Eastern thought. The God of the Course is non-dualistic, which means he's not a God who participates in this world, for one thing. This world is our insane little dream and a God who would participate in it would be as insane as we are. (Don't get all excited by the word "insane," it's just the Course way of saying we made a bad decision to try to separate ourselves from God.)
The Course consists of three parts, the text, the workbook (365 lessons) and the teacher's manual. It is from Jesus. The book is online as well as a great deal of more information, it can be done as self-study or studied in groups. I wish it were so easy as just "taking a course." It's really not easy to "graduate" because the teachings are very difficult, it involves changing our thinking radically and unlearn everything that we think we know. It's a spiritual path, a lifetime study for many people. It claimed me at my first exposure, it's my path, but I'm no expert and I find it difficult to explain the concepts sometimes. I'll do my best if people are interested here, and I'll enjoy doing it, but it's not a missionary kind of path. Sharing the ideas is a good thing, but there is no condemnation for those who do not find or accept.
Having come from Mormonism myself, with all the ideas about revelation and restoration, the Course is just that in its way. However, it turns Christianity upside down (and Mormonism pretty much any religion as far as I know along with it). It sets a few of the alleged sayings of Jesus straight, for example, the Bible says 'revenge is mine,' but what I was really saying is that if you will turn over to me your thoughts of revenge, I will make them disappear' (not an exact quote). It's about turning our thoughts of attack into thoughts of love.
In my experience, with the Mormons around me, family and friends, their reaction to the Course is quite hostile and defensive. According to my sister, "it's amazing how far Satan will go to deceive us." The Course is antithetical to Mormonism because it jerks away most of what it holds dear, everything that makes them special.
I want to tell you this one thing. I have a friend here who is a Course student and comes from a Reorganized Mormon background. He is active in the Community of Christ still, socially, and he facilitates a Course study group there. I went once. Most of the people were members of the CoC. Here were these darling old guys who talked about priesthood and callings and sounded just like the Mormons I knew back when. THey were loving the Course too, but were only undestanding it superficially because they were trying to reconcile it with their Mormon beliefs. And that's just perfectly okay. It was quite touching for me, actually. They were open enough to something new from Jesus to study it in their church.
I can't see that happening with the LDS, please let me know if it does! You hear a lot of talk about Mormonism being open to anything that is good, but in practice it is very closed to different ideas and threatened by them.
I hope this isn't too rambling and incoherent. Let's discuss!
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_Lucretia MacEvil
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:01 am
The Nehor wrote:Ego is complex in the LDS Church. On the one hand we're told we're potential gods and on the other we're told we are nothing. Both are true.
I try to follow King Benjamin who tells us that if we always remember our own nothingness we can rejoice always. I think the only way the bulk of the LDS Church can surrender their ego is to start using that dusty old Atonement thing. It's hard to be arrogant when you're repenting and making REAL contact with God on a daily basis. Unfortunately to far too many LDS (and Christians in general) the talk of nothingness before God is parrot-talk while they privately think God is quite pleased with their religious offerings and thinks them delightful little people instead of internalizing the message of the New Testament and the Book of Mormon that man merits NOTHING.
Atonement:
The Holy Spirit's plan of correction to undo the ego and heal the belief in separation; came into being after the separation, and will be completed when every separated Son has fulfilled his part in the Atonement by total forgiveness; its principle is that the separation never occurred.
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_Lucretia MacEvil
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:01 am
truth dancer wrote:Hi Liz...Mormons give a lot of lip service to getting beyond ego,
Wow, I don't see it.
I see the opposite... think becoming Gods, Goddesses... think blessings of Abraham... think worlds without number....think chosen spirits of God... think CKHL... the One and Only way, powers of God, emphasis on appearance, wealth, elaborate buildings, image of success, very elect, etc. etc. The church is ALL about ego. In all my years of attending church I do not recall one lesson on releasing the ego, understanding unity, or any such thing.
I suppose the natural man (women) idea would be the closest the church comes. But still, the Man (human) of God seems to be all about being elect and chosen and one of Abraham's tribe.
I've read ACIM a vew times and did some of the course work a number of years ago.
I resonate with a lot of its teachings. in my opinion, the essense of its message is, God is Love... fear, ego, eliticism, etc are not of God. One thing I particularly like... ACIM is not about making money, paying for blessings, available for a chosen few, creating wealthy organizations or anything at all like this.
as far as I know, people meet together, discuss it, help each other learn and grow. I find it very similar to the way Jesus taught. I REALLY like this.
But Lulu can fill us in more! :-)
~dancer~
Exactly, and the Course is also not about following the leader, obeying commandments, reverence, what we eat or drink or who we sleep with, or any kind of behavior. It is only about changing our thoughts. It took me a long time to learn to appreciate this approach. I found the Course at a Unity Church. I went there with a friend, and liked it (still do but I don't go much), but being fresh out of Mormonism I found myself sitting there thinking, "how can they call themselves a church? They don't interview anybody. There are gay people here and people living in sin and this church doesn't even care! What kind of church is this?" My thinking has changed soooooooo much over the years, and according to Mormons not for the better, but I am so grateful for it. My big epiphany came at Unity, before I started studying the Course, when I read this on the program, "The only power and presence in my life is God, the Good, the Omnipotent." I thought that sounded very nice ... but what about SATAN? Then the realization that "there doesn't have to be a Satan!!!!" With that, all the residue of Mormonism just washed out of me. I was born again. I've been living a Satan-free life ever since, and I really prefer it.
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_Lucretia MacEvil
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:01 am
moksha wrote:For Mormons and others, some of the ideas in The Course on Miracles can be very powerful, especially if combined with The Work by Byron Katie, plus some ideas from the Landmark Forum and Buddhism.
I'm not familiar with Landmark Forum, but it's incredible how the ideas are everywhere out there once a person is able to look outside of their formal religion.
What do you like from ACIM?
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_Inconceivable
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 3405
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:44 am
Nothingness, Debt and Arrogance..
Thanks for your posts (all of you) on this subject.
____
Speaking of Ego (or arrogance) vs the words of King Benjamin (our nothingness), I now find KB's words quite troubling:
23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives,
for which ye are indebted unto him.
24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for
which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And
ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore,
of what have ye to boast?
25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot
say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the
dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.
34 I say unto you, that there are not any among you, except it be your little children
that have not been taught concerning these things, but what knoweth that ye are
eternally indebted to your heavenly Father, to render to him all that you have and are..
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 2:23 - 26, 34)
King Benjamin speaks of a God that does not freely give, but requires token payments that will never be fully paid. We are eternally indebted to Him. Who will liberate the captive (us) if it is God that we owe? Isn't guilt a form of debt or bondage? Even a loan shark has terms of full payment.
The nothingness tha KB speaks of gives me the impression that the word "nothingness" was not translated correctly. I'm not aware of the one that would fit, but I would fail as a parent if I reminded my children that they could never fully become independent of my gifts and benevolence.
Now because I owe this unpayable debt, I must submit:
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam,
and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit,
and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of
Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient,
full of love, [b]willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him,
even as a child doth submit to his father.[b]
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:19)
As a parent, I do not "inflict", my children might accuse me of that though.
This is why as a Mormon I was willing to accept every calling that was extended to me - I confused the Mormon church (a restoration of guilt over unpayable obligations) and the Gospel of Christ.
KB's talk doesn't really fit into the main stream Mormonism. As children of God Mormons are taught that all their Father has is theirs and that they can become one with God. They are also taught that they have (as an organization)the proper/ true understanding to life's questions and all other philosophies/religeons do not - even if, as an individual Mormon they haven't a clue of the doctrine (like KB's discourse). I think this is where the arrogance comes from.
It's like living a symbiotic relationship with a football team. You can sit in your easy chair, overweight and out of shape, munching on cheetos watching the big game - and feel like part of the team.
Does this make sense?
Thanks TD and Lucrecia for the reference, I would like to look into it.
(once again, sorry for the long post)
____
Speaking of Ego (or arrogance) vs the words of King Benjamin (our nothingness), I now find KB's words quite troubling:
23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives,
for which ye are indebted unto him.
24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for
which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And
ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore,
of what have ye to boast?
25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot
say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the
dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.
34 I say unto you, that there are not any among you, except it be your little children
that have not been taught concerning these things, but what knoweth that ye are
eternally indebted to your heavenly Father, to render to him all that you have and are..
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 2:23 - 26, 34)
King Benjamin speaks of a God that does not freely give, but requires token payments that will never be fully paid. We are eternally indebted to Him. Who will liberate the captive (us) if it is God that we owe? Isn't guilt a form of debt or bondage? Even a loan shark has terms of full payment.
The nothingness tha KB speaks of gives me the impression that the word "nothingness" was not translated correctly. I'm not aware of the one that would fit, but I would fail as a parent if I reminded my children that they could never fully become independent of my gifts and benevolence.
Now because I owe this unpayable debt, I must submit:
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam,
and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit,
and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of
Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient,
full of love, [b]willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him,
even as a child doth submit to his father.[b]
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:19)
As a parent, I do not "inflict", my children might accuse me of that though.
This is why as a Mormon I was willing to accept every calling that was extended to me - I confused the Mormon church (a restoration of guilt over unpayable obligations) and the Gospel of Christ.
KB's talk doesn't really fit into the main stream Mormonism. As children of God Mormons are taught that all their Father has is theirs and that they can become one with God. They are also taught that they have (as an organization)the proper/ true understanding to life's questions and all other philosophies/religeons do not - even if, as an individual Mormon they haven't a clue of the doctrine (like KB's discourse). I think this is where the arrogance comes from.
It's like living a symbiotic relationship with a football team. You can sit in your easy chair, overweight and out of shape, munching on cheetos watching the big game - and feel like part of the team.
Does this make sense?
Thanks TD and Lucrecia for the reference, I would like to look into it.
(once again, sorry for the long post)