The Nature of the Holy Spirit

[_marg]

Like I was saying, there are actual spiritual experiences that point to the viability of an intelligent and unseen world - one that assists us human beings as well as hinders us. I have witnessed such events many times in my short life. They are what they are regardless as to whether I am intelligent enough to attach the proper meaning to them.

These truly "spiritual" events generally illicite an emotional response by those witnessing it. In my experience the emotional response is certainly not the catalyst for the event. However I am certain we can all agree that we've witnessed emotion and even random anamolies in our environment creating an emotional response - a nonspiritual event. I'm sure we've all heard a faith promoting rumor as well to entice us to gather with the rest of the chicks.

I'm not moved to accept your claim to the "spiritual" nor to anyone elses, unless those claims can be either verified or offer up some sort of useful explanatory value. I'm aware people have emotional experiences, which exist in the brain and not outside it. These can be induced mechanically by probing the brain and by drugs.

I have an open mind, but your claims or anyone else's are not sufficient evidence to warrant that any "spiritual" entity exists.

Now, I imagine that with the advances in science, it may be possible to quantify such events in the future. Jak, you may have noticed the world is not quite as flat as previously imagined. With the proper calibrated technical instrument (like a boat) you could prove this to yourself as well.

Right before transparent evidence there were people who believed the world flat. But now with transparent evidence few people continue to hold that belief. Your claim to spiritual lacks transparent evidence. There is no good reason for any skeptic to accept it, nor take it seriously.

It may not hurt to keep an open mind on the subject.

It is not rejected because of closed mindedness, the claim is rejected because there is nothing to warrant acceptance of it.

[_marg]

As a novice here with far fewer posts than most, I just addressed posts of others as if they were serious and interested in thoughtful consideration. That, it appears, may have been an error.

It’s often easier to attack the messenger than the message.

JAK

I agree.

[_Inconceivable]

Marj and Jak,

I am not alone having had personal connections with the unseen world. This, rightly so, should mean very little to someone that has not experienced it for themselves.

You may find my thread "Why I believed the church was true" somewhat interesting (though probably not compelling to a hard core skeptic). Some of these events were witnessed and experienced by others. To an extent some can be quantified but still cannot necessarily be explained - yet they occurred. I just happened to be there. If you were present and been in my shoes, I have little doubt it would have troubled your paradigms. But neither of us are dead yet. Who knows what is in store for us tomorrow that may disturb our foundations?

Jak (and Marj), I was chiding you. Sorry for the offence. The colors make perfect sense.


(but you're still wrong. he he)

[_JAK]

Inconceivable stated:
Like I was saying, there are actual spiritual experiences that point to the viability of an intelligent and unseen world - one that assists us human beings as well as hinders us. I have witnessed such events many times in my short life. They are what they are regardless as to whether I am intelligent enough to attach the proper meaning to them.

No evidence has been articulated for a defense of “spiritual experiences.” Emotions and feelings can certainly be documented. Absent a clear distinction, they appear to be the same. Emotional feeling is not distinguished from “spiritual experiences.”

The vague declaration: “I have witnessed such events many times in my short life” is unreliable. That you experience or observe emotional responses is not in question.

Your statement: “They are what they are...” is a circular argument lacking in evidence for support. Islamic terrorists have emotional responses which propell (propel) them into action that takes both their life and the lives of others. They are having an emotional experience. I suspect they would regard it as a spiritual experience. But no support for that conclusion has been established, nor has it been established by you in your claims.

Few would deny that we humans have emotional responses. Some other animals also have emotional responses. We can observe fear, joy, etc.

Absent a distinction between emotions and something else, the claim of “spiritual” anything should be viewed with great skepticism.

Historically, religions have capitalized on fear as well as joy. These are emotions. No evidence has been established for those emotions to be something else.

Inconceivable stated:
These truly "spiritual" events generally illicite (illicit) an emotional response by those witnessing it. In my experience the emotional response is certainly not the catalyst for the event. However I am certain we can all agree that we've witnessed emotion and even random anamolies (anomalies) in our environment creating an emotional response - a nonspiritual event. I'm sure we've all heard a faith promoting rumor as well to entice us to gather with the rest of the chicks.

Think about how you would articulate a difference between your notion “spiritual” and emotional? What’s the difference, and how can it be shown? No evidence for: “These truly ‘spiritual’ events...” as you claim.

Inconceivable stated:
Now, I imagine that with the advances in science, it may be possible to quantify such events in the future. Jak, you may have noticed the world is not quite as flat as previously imagined. With the proper calibrated technical instrument (like a boat) you could prove this to yourself as well.

Often people who have what they regard as most unusual experience attach emotion to that experience. It could be owning a home still standing while two homes away, the house is flattened by a tornado. Such experiences produce emotional response. It’s a different emotional response for the one whose house was flattened by the tornado.

There is no question that scientific information continues to be accumulated. We understand far more about how and why in many areas. And, the explosion of information has been exponential in the past 200 years.

Inconceivable stated:
It may not hurt to keep an open mind on the subject.

Keeping alert to new information is good. However, the evidence for the earth being a sphere is conclusive. No evidence available today to well informed people supports an “open mind” that the earth may be flat.

And while the person whose house was missed narrowly by a tornado may believe it was a miracle (for example), evidence does not support that conclusion. Emotions are unreliable as a rational assessment of events.

JAK

[_karl61]

Yes, JAK.

Nice science made the nice comforts come but yet people still aren't all (or even mostly) happy. When is science going to get on that?

Hate to break this to you JAK but your hard-core rationality is nothing without an emotionally-charged, subjective goal to aim at. Logic without a goal is useless. For that goal you have to turn to the 'dark dogma' or religion and philosophy.

Nehor, Do you think that maybe in ten, twenty or fifty years science may be able to tell when you are feeling spiritual through some super scan machine - say the absense of certain brain chemicals or more of certain brain chemicals can highly predict what you are seeing or feeling.

do you believe that ninety percent of what people think is spiritual is just luck. Is your ability to sense fear or something just a sixth sense that has allowed your genes to survive to this point.

I do belive in some outside source of power/strenght or love but that is the exception where everyone is so quick to point success to God and failures to themselves or others. Also, there are some who can enduce euphoria through thought.

sorry, It's a lot of points.

thestyleguy stated:
I do belive in some outside source of power/strenght or love but that is the exception where everyone is so quick to point success to God and failures to themselves or others. Also, there are some who can enduce euphoria through thought.

Why? Absent evidence for supernatural manipulation, such claim lacks merit. Just how do you accurately assess “the exception” you claim here? I’m skeptical.

Is it your position that if you can’t understand, God did it? Is that your view? God gave people polio because of their sin. That was prior to the discovery/invention of the polio vaccine by Jonas Salk.

Those who had been indoctrinated by religion who first received the vaccine considered that God did it. Today, we know the polio vaccine was a result of hard work by a medical scientist. God notions are irrelevant.

JAK

i wish I could write better: I think that ninety-nine percent of things people attribute to God is just their imagination. I think that one percent of the time some outside force is involved. I have no evidence just my own subjective experience. My pursuit today is the Mormon church and if it is God's church or just another church. Certainly from what is written it appears that many, many groups of people have thought that during their lifetime that Jesus would return, from first century christians to people in the fourteen or fifteen hundreds to Joseph Smith's time to today.

[_The Nehor]

Some where back in this fast moving thread Nehor inferred "...science has not brought happiness..." or words to that affect. Really Bro??

Are you suggesting there was more "happiness" before the predominance of "science"?

It's quite likely in my "vision" ;-) to see Science revealing truth about what contributes to unhappiness--actually it already has, but not everyone pays attention. So, there will be more information to that purpose. That will bring more questions re the value of religion/church as now seen.

This could lead to more real-spirituality that might expand core values beyond the narrow confines of religion. Albeit confines that are becoming more flexible as intelligence dispells the dependence on miracles and rituals...

Discovery is the essence and purpose of existence, as I understand things... Warm regards, Roger

I am suggesting that scientific knowledge has little, if any connection to happiness. Part of my faith teaches that the happiest people on Earth were the city of Enoch who knows how long ago and a Nephite civilization roughly 2000 years ago.

I agree with you regarding discovery being one of the key aspects of our lives but limiting that only to scientific discovery would make scientists the only fulfilled people on the planet.

[_JAK]

Inconceivable stated:
I am not alone having had personal connections with the unseen world. This, rightly so, should mean very little to someone that has not experienced it for themselves.

Claims absent evidence for those claims should be disregarded. You have multiple claims here. Just what do you mean by “the unseen world”? The tooth fairy is “unseen.” Some children “are not alone having had a personal connection with...” the tooth fairy. That does not make their “personal connection” a reliable connection.

Nor does your claim for “not alone” make it reliable. People who are brainwashed are victims. They believe what they are indoctrinated to believe. It will not stand up to objective, intellectual, rational analysis.

Inconceivable stated:
You may find my thread "Why I believed the church was true" somewhat interesting (though probably not compelling to a hard core skeptic). Some of these events were witnessed and experienced by others. To an extent some can be quantified but still cannot necessarily be explained - yet they occurred. I just happened to be there. If you were present and been in my shoes, I have little doubt it would have troubled your paradigms. But neither of us are dead yet. Who knows what is in store for us tomorrow that may disturb our foundations?

Oral Roberts performed claimed “miracles” on television in the 1960s and claimed he cured people of cancer and other deadly disease. Upon medical science inquiry, all were found to be fraud. People Roberts claimed to have healed, died of their disease. (Roberts used Christianity as the base.) Some others were evaluated and found not to have the disease at all. They lived, but not because of faith-healing.

That you claim “witnessed and experienced by others” does not give you credibility. Just as the witnessing of TV evangelists claiming “faith-healing” do not give them credibility.

You’re vague in your claim: “To an extent some can be quantified but still cannot necessarily be explained - yet they occurred.”

Weasel words here. Wiggle room to wiggle out of any clear, open to testing, objective observation of your claims. You present nothing persuasive by assertion absent that clear, transparent, tested evidence.

Claim absent evidence (which you continue) should be disregarded.

What’s the story? “I was there,” you say. It’s meaningless. It’s your story absent objective observation. You were a participant if you were there. Your claims are bogus.

Inconceivable stated:
If you were present and been in my shoes, I have little doubt it would have troubled your paradigms. But neither of us are dead yet. Who knows what is in store for us tomorrow that may disturb our foundations?

But we were not there, and you make no case for a vague, non-specific claim. All this is bogus generalization on your part.

You present nothing which is persuasive -- no evidence, just claims.

JAK

[_Inconceivable]

You're killing me Jak.

I agree, the tornado missed a house. Quite meaningless to the Baptist with the demo'd one next door. A lot of emotion and conjecture there. Not what I'm talking about at all. Neither am I referring to the indoctrination of radical Islamists that have their sights set on sharing virgins with Brigham Young.

I have received distinct impressions while minding my own business. I have witnessed and seen with my own eyes the consequences of either using the information or rejecting it. To anyone that did not witness it could only sum it up as an Faith-Promoting Rumor (faith promoting rumor). I'm ok with that. That is my evaluation as well.

For example (from one of the incidents I related in another thread). I received a distinct impression to slow down and take it easy. I dropped to 65. The morning traffic was quite heavy and I would not have gotten much further ahead than a few hundred yards. Several miles down the road I watch an SUV slide sideways across 2 lanes till the front tire pinned the shoulder and flipped violently end over end. There is little doubt in my mind that in my own conservative calculations that I would have found myself at that precise area had I not reacted positively to this "impression". The impression was simply what it was. I can draw all sorts of conclusions as to "why", but all I do know for sure is that I got a heads up, and I am here in one piece.

Obviously there is no conceivable way for you to quantify my experience. I'm not offended. But because I'm just as human as you are, I see little reason why you would not be entitled on occasion to the same treatment so you can have your own. Don't be surprised if I poo poo it. It's not mine, it's yours.

Now, on the other hand. Last May, while travelling to the Lake we came over a small hill to see that a vehicle had just come to a stop on it's roof in the middle of our path - occuring only several hundred yards ahead as well. I received no impressions. There were some interesting circumstances that impeded our progress that placed us where we were to the timing of this horrific and emotionally charged scene - but I can make only conjecture here of the coincidence. And have little interest in doing so.

[_JAK]

Some where back in this fast moving thread Nehor inferred "...science has not brought happiness..." or words to that affect. Really Bro??

Are you suggesting there was more "happiness" before the predominance of "science"?

It's quite likely in my "vision" ;-) to see Science revealing truth about what contributes to unhappiness--actually it already has, but not everyone pays attention. So, there will be more information to that purpose. That will bring more questions re the value of religion/church as now seen.

This could lead to more real-spirituality that might expand core values beyond the narrow confines of religion. Albeit confines that are becoming more flexible as intelligence dispells the dependence on miracles and rituals...

Discovery is the essence and purpose of existence, as I understand things... Warm regards, Roger

I am suggesting that scientific knowledge has little, if any connection to happiness. Part of my faith teaches that the happiest people on Earth were the city of Enoch who knows how long ago and a Nephite civilization roughly 2000 years ago.

I agree with you regarding discovery being one of the key aspects of our lives but limiting that only to scientific discovery would make scientists the only fulfilled people on the planet.

Nehor stated:
I am suggesting that scientific knowledge has little, if any connection to happiness.

You ignore my analysis previously. You fail to address that analysis regarding your comfort and health. Your “suggesting” is flawed. People who are suffering from disease, heat, cold, etc. with no escape or solution to those discomforts and threat of death do not demonstrate “happiness.”

I suggest, Nehor, that you are a fraud. Why don’t you quote me and respond to the analysis I presented? I suggest it’s because you are incapable of doing so. You prefer to get on with asserting claims.

Applied science (and a degree of wealth) gives access to those very things that make us comfortable, secure, and safe. To suggest that those three things are unrelated to happiness is absurd.

You don’t have to know how the air-conditioning works to enjoy the advantages of it. So you have access to scientific knowledge even if you’re ignorant of just how it works. But it works. It can be explained. And, it’s inherently linked to our mental state of mind (as in happy).

Your suggesting is flawed. I should like to observe you alone and not by choice on a desert in 130 degree temperatures for an extended period of time not to pass your death there and see just how “happy” you would be in that environment over which you had no control and over which you had no scientific knowledge (applied).

Your claim is absurd. Look at the number of posts you have made on this bb alone. You did it with applied science. The antithesis of happy is unhappy. Are you “happy” posting to this bb? This medium is applied science.

Nehor stated:
Part of my faith teaches that the happiest people on Earth were the city of Enoch who knows how long ago and a Nephite civilization roughly 2000 years ago.

You have been indoctrinated to reject rational thinking. Religious mythology refined and used for marketing clouds what intellect you might have. People 2000 years ago had short life-expectancy, were killed by disease at early ages, lived lives you cannot imagine (excluding religious myth of happy talk).

You should understand that the topic has become a matter of considerable controversy in which the theories of modern Mormon pundits are pitted against the traditional teaching of the LDS Church. They don’t agree on history. Hence, history is a point of view even within the confines of the Mormon dogma.

You don’t demonstrate that you understand that “your faith” even since the time of J. Smith’s mythology is far from united.

Review: A Brief Survey of the Evidence

Nehor stated:
I agree with you (Roger Morrison) regarding discovery being one of the key aspects of our lives but limiting that only to scientific discovery would make scientists the only fulfilled people on the planet.

Again, you demonstrate that you’re disingenuous. No one suggested your straw man here.

You are the beneficiary of applied science. Your comfort, health, life-expectancy, and happiness are directly linked to applied science. No one suggested your straw man that anything: “would make scientists the only fulfilled people on the planet.”

Your indoctrination in religious mythology appears to preclude the function of thinking skills.

JAK

[_The Nehor]

JAK has exposed me, I'm going to go sit in a corner and drool now.