The Reason I believed the LDS church was True..

[_marg]

Just taking this one scientific discovery as absolutely true, I cannot understand how any educated person can deny that there is a God. In fact I say many God’s because I can’t see how one God could organize something so massive. As an individual I am nothing as compared to the earth. The earth is nothing as compared to our solar system. Our solar system is nothing as compared to our galaxy, and our galaxy is nothing as compared to the universe that we now know.

It is absolute foolishness to think that this has all come about by accident. There is too much precision and order from the smallest thing that we think we know exists, to the vastness of the universe.


Stan

No scientific theory or law is considered absolutely true. Experience has taught this. Design is not evidence for a God, if it was then how was God created and designed? What educated individual claims no god? An individual educated should appreciate lack of evidence for a God, which is not the same as claiming no God. Apparent design is not evidence.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Inconceivable -

I don't post much, because I'm not really that smart and I sometimes threadkill. But here are my thoughts.

That has never stopped me. :)

Interesting original post. I actually envy that you have had those kinds of spiritual experiences. I wish I had some sort of confirmation, but I never have and maybe never will. I hope there is something though.

Its very scary when the perfect Mormon picture of what life is all about breaks and falls apart and you are left to pick of the pieces. Certain ideas still sound good and make sense, but others don't fit anymore, so what do you do with them? I have found some comfort in the idea that I was just feeling part of the elephant (maybe the backside!). But the idea that this picture is different and much much bigger is a fun idea. Its refreshing to feel that I don't know it all and have a lot more to learn. It does get frustrating too, because I just want to KNOW something, and I really don't. I enjoy learning from the atheists, agnostics, believers, new agers, and others, because each make interesting and seemingly valid points. Part of me just wants to identify with one group (the need to KNOW) but I try to resist "having to choose" because I don't want to fall back into some dogmatic viewpoint.

I have come to believe that if there is a God, there is no way he can justly hold anyone responsible for their earnest desires and pursuits for truth, regardless of what religion or ism they fall into (if any at all). I think the only hell is indecision-not seeking truth and not caring about it. If God really is that mean, we have a big problem.

Anyway, I hope you can start enjoying the path you are on.

That sounded pretty smart to me!

[_truth dancer]

Hi Stan... :-)

You are a very nice addition to the board! Glad you are here!

First of all I know that healings and miracles are not limited to those who hold the Priesthood. But that does not keep me from my faith that I can give or receive blessings via the Priesthood.

I understand this... (smile). I'm wondering how you think other blessings occur? If a Pagan performs a healing how do you account for this? If a atheist uses meditation to heal, how to you account for it?

I know that believers feel they have a special, or more powerful, or more correct, or the right power, (however one wants to phrase it), which is problematic in my opinion, knowing that the world is filled with all sorts of healings virtually all the time.

As I have pointed out on other forums, I believe that God The Father was the creator of my spirit and by this definition is my Father.

Unlike most of Christianity and obviously atheist and agnostics, I can visualize God in my mind, in human form but exalted. This mental visualization helps me when I pray because I believe that I am talking to Him, and if I am paying attention He will respond to me. When I pray I am very specific on my desires. Sometimes I get what I want and sometimes I don’t.

I find it interesting how different people resonate with different ideas. This particular idea is one that totally does NOT work for me. In my most wild imagination I cannot imagine the God of the entire universe, as a human being like the advanced primates on this particular planet, during this blink of a moment in time. I just cannot get this into my brain. (smile)!

The most awesome part of my mental visualization, to me, is that I have peace in my mind that God really loves me.

Knowing His love for me, I can understand His infinite love for all of His spirit children.

I'm glad your belief brings you peace. :-)

To try to equate His love for us, to something that I understand, I can look at my own children. Two of them believe in God but are unwilling to follow His commandments. Do I love them less because of their decisions? My answer is no. I do not approve of their decisions but I love them and I will help them whenever the situation arises.

You are a great father for sure! :-)

I think I read one of your posts where you followed a similar path as these two daughters of mine. I can testify to you that your own father has/ or had feelings, similar to mine, about you.

I'm not sure to what exactly you are referring... are you thinking my father does not approve of my choices and decisions? I promise you my father adores me and is VERY happy that I am happy. He knows how much peace and comfort I have had now that I have released the struggle of belief. He is very supportive and glad I am where I am. I am very certain he is 100% pleased with my choices and decisions.

I hope that my answer here can help you understand why my faith in God is so strong.

Oh yes, I had no doubt your faith is strong. Again, I am glad your belief provides comfort and peace for you!

Nice to visit,

~dancer~

[_truth dancer]

Hey Moclips... I'm happy to see you! :-)

I don't post much, because I'm not really that smart and I sometimes threadkill.

Ummm excuse me but you are brilliant and deep thinking and always have fabulous thoughts! :-)

Its very scary when the perfect Mormon picture of what life is all about breaks and falls apart and you are left to pick of the pieces. Certain ideas still sound good and make sense, but others don't fit anymore, so what do you do with them? I have found some comfort in the idea that I was just feeling part of the elephant (maybe the backside!). But the idea that this picture is different and much much bigger is a fun idea. Its refreshing to feel that I don't know it all and have a lot more to learn. It does get frustrating too, because I just want to KNOW something, and I really don't. I enjoy learning from the atheists, agnostics, believers, new agers, and others, because each make interesting and seemingly valid points. Part of me just wants to identify with one group (the need to KNOW) but I try to resist "having to choose" because I don't want to fall back into some dogmatic viewpoint.

I too think it would be nice to have a "tribe." (smile)

I have come to believe that different belief systems resonate with different folks... no one really knows (how could we), but due to cultural, familial, societal, and biological differences, we are drawn to various ideas.

Personally, I think whatever belief system, or ideology that helps folks live a better life is great! :-)

I have come to believe that if there is a God, there is no way he can justly hold anyone responsible for their earnest desires and pursuits for truth, regardless of what religion or ism they fall into (if any at all). I think the only hell is indecision-not seeking truth and not caring about it. If God really is that mean, we have a big problem.

AMEN! :-)

~dancer~

Moclips... here is a little thing I wrote on my blog to which you may relate..

my letter to God

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Stan, welcome to the site! You said:

Just taking this one scientific discovery as absolutely true, I cannot understand how any educated person can deny that there is a God. In fact I say many God’s because I can’t see how one God could organize something so massive. As an individual I am nothing as compared to the earth. The earth is nothing as compared to our solar system. Our solar system is nothing as compared to our galaxy, and our galaxy is nothing as compared to the universe that we now know.

It is absolute foolishness to think that this has all come about by accident. There is too much precision and order from the smallest thing that we think we know exists, to the vastness of the universe.

An interesting proposition since more uneducated folks have historically always made up the bulk of believers. Even today, fewer better-educated folks convert than lesser educated folks. At least in my geographic area. Might want to check with Missionaries where their converts are generally found.

However, being "...educated with two degrees, in math & engineering..." does not establish one's EQ or modify their personal needs/wants that church membership can fill. Nice that you are happy as a Mormon.

"Absolute foolishness" does not sound an appropriate term to be used by a person with two degrees ;-) Very Red-Neck. Maybe, in SS or PH class, but in mixed company: Mos & nonMos, believers & unbelievers...YIKES!! Warm regards, Roger

[_Quantumwave]

This thread by Incon gets to the bedrock of the very existence of this forum. Why do people believe the LDS religion is true? I will ask, why do people believe in ANY of their religions?

I find it curious that religion continues to persist in civilization, in spite of its notorious history of divisiveness and violence. It seems inconceivable that otherwise intelligent, clear-thinking people subscribe to what amounts to folklore. Religious belief within a sectarian cell is sustained and passed to succeeding generations through a sense of family/group loyalty reinforced by tradition and the fear of threatened consequences of non-belief. The intensity of loyalty and fear varies from sect to sect and sub-cell to sub-cell within sects. Fear-based dogma is inculcated in the credulously trusting youth, which includes the divisive, hateful, elitist belief of exclusive truth, not infrequently evolving into the resolve that unbelievers should either comply through conversion or suffer death. Similarly, many sects including Mormonism advocate that the unbelievers who reject their dogma will suffer assorted eternal, spiritual consequences which vary widely between sectarian cells, depending on scriptural interpretation by ranking authorities.

Over the years, this information becomes more than just information to these believers; it becomes ingrained in their total makeup, inoculating them against using simple logic and reason to evaluate their religious dogma. To challenge any aspect of their information is regarded by them as an assault on their personal integrity, which results in responses ranging from rehearsed replies to angry responses, including death decrees. Contrast this behavior with the response received from challenging someone’s understanding of physics, math or chemistry. Since both subjects of science and religion involve the processing of information no more divergent than history and calculus, then critical discussions of religion should take place without emotion and anger. The difference of the described responses shows conclusively that inculcating our youth with this hateful Bible-based information is an egregious mistake. Many enlightened religionists who do have doubts, assuage these doubts and continue their religious activity by adopting the logic of Pascal’s Wager.

[_Jason Bourne]

So, I am not sure how to square this all. I do no think my experiences were mere emotional things and many go beyond feelings as well. But I am not sure at all these days.

Jason,

I think the challenge of trying to figure out how to square it all is the reason why most of us come to this board. I would not be here if I had it settled.

No doubt.

[_barrelomonkeys]

This thread by Incon gets to the bedrock of the very existence of this forum. Why do people believe the LDS religion is true? I will ask, why do people believe in ANY of their religions?

I find it curious that religion continues to persist in civilization, in spite of its notorious history of divisiveness and violence. It seems inconceivable that otherwise intelligent, clear-thinking people subscribe to what amounts to folklore. Religious belief within a sectarian cell is sustained and passed to succeeding generations through a sense of family/group loyalty reinforced by tradition and the fear of threatened consequences of non-belief. The intensity of loyalty and fear varies from sect to sect and sub-cell to sub-cell within sects. Fear-based dogma is inculcated in the credulously trusting youth, which includes the divisive, hateful, elitist belief of exclusive truth, not infrequently evolving into the resolve that unbelievers should either comply through conversion or suffer death. Similarly, many sects including Mormonism advocate that the unbelievers who reject their dogma will suffer assorted eternal, spiritual consequences which vary widely between sectarian cells, depending on scriptural interpretation by ranking authorities.

Over the years, this information becomes more than just information to these believers; it becomes ingrained in their total makeup, inoculating them against using simple logic and reason to evaluate their religious dogma. To challenge any aspect of their information is regarded by them as an assault on their personal integrity, which results in responses ranging from rehearsed replies to angry responses, including death decrees. Contrast this behavior with the response received from challenging someone’s understanding of physics, math or chemistry. Since both subjects of science and religion involve the processing of information no more divergent than history and calculus, then critical discussions of religion should take place without emotion and anger. The difference of the described responses shows conclusively that inculcating our youth with this hateful Bible-based information is an egregious mistake. Many enlightened religionists who do have doubts, assuage these doubts and continue their religious activity by adopting the logic of Pascal’s Wager.

Hi quantumwave. Do you believe subscribing to a religion is the same as belief in God absent religion?

[_Quantumwave]

This thread by Incon gets to the bedrock of the very existence of this forum. Why do people believe the LDS religion is true? I will ask, why do people believe in ANY of their religions?

I find it curious that religion continues to persist in civilization, in spite of its notorious history of divisiveness and violence. It seems inconceivable that otherwise intelligent, clear-thinking people subscribe to what amounts to folklore. Religious belief within a sectarian cell is sustained and passed to succeeding generations through a sense of family/group loyalty reinforced by tradition and the fear of threatened consequences of non-belief. The intensity of loyalty and fear varies from sect to sect and sub-cell to sub-cell within sects. Fear-based dogma is inculcated in the credulously trusting youth, which includes the divisive, hateful, elitist belief of exclusive truth, not infrequently evolving into the resolve that unbelievers should either comply through conversion or suffer death. Similarly, many sects including Mormonism advocate that the unbelievers who reject their dogma will suffer assorted eternal, spiritual consequences which vary widely between sectarian cells, depending on scriptural interpretation by ranking authorities.

Over the years, this information becomes more than just information to these believers; it becomes ingrained in their total makeup, inoculating them against using simple logic and reason to evaluate their religious dogma. To challenge any aspect of their information is regarded by them as an assault on their personal integrity, which results in responses ranging from rehearsed replies to angry responses, including death decrees. Contrast this behavior with the response received from challenging someone’s understanding of physics, math or chemistry. Since both subjects of science and religion involve the processing of information no more divergent than history and calculus, then critical discussions of religion should take place without emotion and anger. The difference of the described responses shows conclusively that inculcating our youth with this hateful Bible-based information is an egregious mistake. Many enlightened religionists who do have doubts, assuage these doubts and continue their religious activity by adopting the logic of Pascal’s Wager.

Hi quantumwave. Do you believe subscribing to a religion is the same as belief in God absent religion?

Can't really answer your question since it presumes non-belief in God is a religion, which it really is not. That would equate to stating that non-belief in Greek mythology is a religion. My temple-working sister tells me that my interest in science is a religion. I tell her she has a binary outlook on life ingrained from the many years of being exposed to the philosophy of religious certitude...and the beat goes on.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Can't really answer your question since it presumes non-belief in God is a religion, which it really is not.

My question presumes that non-belief in God is a religion? How? I didn't ask about the non-belief in God at all. I actually think the non-belief in God is just a non-belief. I do not believe in God and don't equate my non-belief as religion at all! I'm rather surpised you viewed my question as a presumption of any sort.

That would equate to stating that non-belief in Greek mythology is a religion. My temple-working sister tells me that my interest in science is a religion. I tell her she has a binary outlook on life ingrained from the many years of being exposed to the philosophy of religious certitude...and the beat goes on.

Can I ask again, perhaps rephrasing? :)

You made statements about people that subscribe to religion. Do these statements carry over to those that believe in God with out subscribing to religion?

I make no presumptions about non-belief. I'm talking about people that believe in God or gods and are not a part of organized religion. Is that clearer?