The Reason I believed the LDS church was True..

[_Inconceivable]

Incon & Harmony, I'm wondering about your self-references to being "no body"??? Like, come on guys, "Yer a somebody!" At least to me! Maybe I'm not getting your intended meaning??? Help me here... Warm regards, Roger

Well of course we are.

However, our opinion/inspiration has little/no effect upon membership opinion or doctrinal mandates broadcast from the hierarchy of power.

[_Inconceivable]

What your talking about here is the word of God. The good news being that Christ worked out the Atonement. A resurrection is promised to all, but to what degree individuals will be exalted, and what type of body they will be resurrected into is a diferent matter.

Now ask yourself, how would you, as God, set up your kingdom to ensure that these responsibilities and covenants are doled out appropriatly? A Priesthood? A church?

How would you administer your gospel?

Gaz, like so many other prostlyting Mormons, your understanding seems to come through indoctrination and the Faith-Promoting Rumor's of others.

Good News. Have you "felt to sing the song of redeeming love"? Have you witnessed the Miracle of forgiveness described by Enos and Alma between just you and Jesus? Or was the bishop always involved?

[_Yoda]

How would you administer your gospel?

Actually, I think that Jesus had a pretty good answer with his Sermon on the Mount.

;)

What frustrates me about the current Church's structure, Gaz, is that it has more of a business/corporate feel than anything from God. It is certainly a "man-made" organizational structure.

Why the complexity?

Jesus himself taught that if we treated others the way we, ourselves, want to be treated, the rest would fall into place.

[_ajax18]

I still feel the spirit very strongly when I read the sermon on the mount. I don't remember Jesus saying we had to belong to any particular Church at all. Does He say that somewhere? I also find it interesting that people who've had near death experiences spoke of the importance of going to church but never endorsed a particular church.

While our church claims to have the complete truth, I find many members even more confused than me on many moral quesitons. I find the Brethren silent on many of these questions. We still argue about the whole grace vs. works thing. I think a detailed understanding and agreement of this is essential to any religion that seeks to motivate people to lengthen their stride, be a little better, work a little harder, etc. At a certain point you have to ask yourself if you're really being uplifted at Church, or are other patrons views on justice, making you wonder why you ever signed up to be a Mormon in the first place?

While you may argue with John 3:5 that baptism and membership are prerecquisittes to entering the Celestial Kingdom, I don't see where the Brethren are teaching anything more than you would find in any other Church. In fact it seem as if they're saying less and less all the time.

[_JAK]

Inconceivable Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:04 am

Inconceivable stated:
I get it, Marj. You're glad you didn't have stupid misguided Mormon parents or any other combo of religeous (religious) zealot. High fives for showing up as a random coincedence (coincidence) in a well balanced, non religious family.


You appear to be consistently engaged in the straw man attack. You paraphrase inaccurately and falsely what someone said, then you attack your own words of misrepresentation.

marg (not Marj) did not state as you phrase.

Your rejoinder to marg is disingenuous.

Why not quote her accurately and respond to what she said in fact, not what you misrepresent her statement to be?

JAK

[_Gazelam]

Basically, church organization is the same in all ages; the same organization that existed in the primitive Church prevails now. (Sixth Article of Faith). Whenever the Church has been fully established on earth, the priesthood, the keys of the kingdom, and the apostolic power have been manifest. In such periods there have always been prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. (Eph. 4:11-14)

But God's earthly kingdom is always organized in such a manner as to serve most ideally the needs of the people under the conditions that exist in the particular age. Hence, provision is made for "helps, governments," quorums, auxiliary organizations, committees, boards, and special administrative units to satisfy special needs. (1 Cor. 12:28) In the last days, worldly conditions and the complexities of civization being what they are, the church orginization is probably more extended and intricate than in any previous dispensation.

Church orginization is always given by revelation. One of the great evidences of the need of contemporary revelation is the fact that changins social, economic, industrial, and other conditions, warrant changes in the helps and governments appended to the great basic and unchanging church organization.

Over the whole Church the First Presidency presides; each group of General Authorities acts under the direction of the Presidency in an assigned sphere. From time to time special auxiliaries, committees, and organizations are set up to serve the whole Church.

All of this is set up to assure truth is taught. This is done on the local level by way of Stakes (composed of Wards and branches). Each of these so organized as to carry out the full program of the church. The program is this, to ensure that every ordinance of the gospel is made available, that God may make covenant with his people on an individual basis. That in the keeping of these covenants they may be called after his name and receive the blessings associated therewith.

[_marg]

Inconceivable Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:04 am

Inconceivable stated:
I get it, Marj. You're glad you didn't have stupid misguided Mormon parents or any other combo of religeous (religious) zealot. High fives for showing up as a random coincedence (coincidence) in a well balanced, non religious family.


You appear to be consistently engaged in the straw man attack. You paraphrase inaccurately and falsely what someone said, then you attack your own words of misrepresentation.

marg (not Marj) did not state as you phrase.

Your rejoinder to marg is disingenuous.

Why not quote her accurately and respond to what she said in fact, not what you misrepresent her statement to be?

Thanks JAK, I didn't catch Inconceivable's post to me, so I went back and found it.

He also in that post said "Marj, I don't know you well enough to understand why you are here at MD. If you think there is value in an explanation, I would be somewhat intrigued. But please, why don't you start your own thread."

Well I don't claim value in an explanation for why I'm here. He brought this question up of why I'm here with this line "You and JAK might get together and start your very own thread entitled "What am I doing here??" because I certainly am in the dark." and I commented to it "You ask why I am here. I guess that means you think I shouldn't be. So I ask you why do you think that?"

I'm not interested in starting a thread explaining why I'm here to someone who says they are "somewhat intrigued". They should explain why they are intrigued at the very least first.

Anyhow with regards to what you brought to my attention JAK I see he took it wrong.

First of all Inconceivable, I'm not gloating about having better parents. I'm not unique I'm a function of my environment. The main reason you were Mormon is because of your upbringing and the main reason you think fortunate experiences indicate a God is as well a function of your religious upbringing. If I had a Mormon upbringing I'd likely think as you do.

If we use your logic and attribute fortunate experiences as indicative of a God then my being unencumbered by all the time, money, energy and tribulations of religious organization involvement should indicate to you that either God helps atheists too, or fortunate experiences are not necessarily indicative of a God.

In addition there is this perception taught by religious organizations that one can not or will not lead a moral life without God belief. That one will not be able to control vices and will end up as irresponsible individuals. Interestingly you think I'm just a random coincidence. Could it possibly be Inconceivable that what makes people moral or not, responsible or not is not due to a religious affiliation and/or God belief?

[_ajax18]

Could it possibly be Inconceivable that what makes people moral or not, responsible or not is not due to a religious affiliation and/or God belief

What would motivate a person to be forgiving (all the time, not just when it was in your own best interest) were it not for religion?

To me it seems that if I were atheist, I would simply act in my own best earthly interest. As a believer in God and the afterlife, I act in my own best eternal interest. Depending on which belief I adopted, it would seem to me that I would act very differently.

1. I would take revenge if the oppurtunity presented itself. It's something I've always wanted. I choose to believe that I don't have to settle the score with everyone who has mistreated me. If I knew the score was never to be settled, I would definitely be working on finding a way to do so whether I achieved it or not. For me, revenge would take on a much higher priority if I were to take on an atheist mindset.

2. I've also heard atheist people on this board say, "If there are no children involved, divorce for whatever reason you want." As a believer, I'm much more committed to my spouse. If this life were all there were and I only got to go around once, why not divorce a spouse if you had a better oppurtunity? From a community perspective this seems like a viciously unstable lifesyle and no way to live at all. From an individual perspective it seems like the thing to do. This is just another way in which I would probably act differently.

Belief is definitely a reason people act differently. Are you saying that as an atheist, you do all the good things that believers do but out of different reasons? If so, what are those reasons? Explain them to me because from what I see they wouldn't motivate me as strongly as supernatural reasons.

Say you're a slave in antebellum America. What would make you want to live on? If you ever got out, what would convince you to walk away and not seek vengeance on your captors?

[_barrelomonkeys]

Could it possibly be Inconceivable that what makes people moral or not, responsible or not is not due to a religious affiliation and/or God belief

What would motivate a person to be forgiving (all the time, not just when it was in your own best interest) were it not for religion?

To me it seems that if I were atheist, I would simply act in my own best earthly interest. As a believer in God and the afterlife, I act in my own best eternal interest. Depending on which belief I adopted, it would seem to me that I would act very differently.

I'm kind because I know what it feels like to be hurt. I give because I know what it feels like to go hungry. I smile and welcome the lonely or lost because I know what it feels like for someone to turn away from me and not meet my eyes. I forgive because I know what it feels to have someone never forgive me (or forgive myself).

I learned life's lessons from life. I learned from pain and love what was important and try to give the same to humanity. No religion taught me that.

I have empathy... some of which I wish I didn't. But I can't hurt another without feeling it myself. No dogma was needed.

[_ajax18]

Could it possibly be Inconceivable that what makes people moral or not, responsible or not is not due to a religious affiliation and/or God belief

What would motivate a person to be forgiving (all the time, not just when it was in your own best interest) were it not for religion?

To me it seems that if I were atheist, I would simply act in my own best earthly interest. As a believer in God and the afterlife, I act in my own best eternal interest. Depending on which belief I adopted, it would seem to me that I would act very differently.

I'm kind because I know what it feels like to be hurt. I give because I know what it feels like to go hungry. I smile and welcome the lonely or lost because I know what it feels like for someone to turn away from me and not meet my eyes. I forgive because I know what it feels to have someone never forgive me (or forgive myself).

I learned life's lessons from life. I learned from pain and love what was important and try to give the same to humanity. No religion taught me that.

I have empathy... some of which I wish I didn't. But I can't hurt another without feeling it myself. No dogma was needed.

Life is a great teacher. Yet how would you know these things before you experienced them? My religious upbringing definitely put me to consider things like this at an early age. I've noticed people make much better marital companions as they get older. Yet by then it's often way past time in my view to start acting right.