The Atonement

[_Dezire2BWise]

My questions are about the atonement/salvation. LDS missionaries come to my door from time to time and have explained that the atonement was begun in Gethsemane and completed on the cross. I don't agree with this because that means that God's Sacrificial Lamb and High Priest of the New Covenant would have been defiled before He reached the Cross. Please suggest any scriptures. I'm willing to look them up. Thanks

P.S. I'm a s-l-o-w typist and I'me a newbie to chats, so I ask for your patience plz.

[_Doctor Steuss]

My questions are about the atonement/salvation. LDS missionaries come to my door from time to time and have explained that the atonement was begun in Gethsemane and completed on the cross. I don't agree with this because that means that God's Sacrificial Lamb and High Priest of the New Covenant would have been defiled before He reached the Cross. Please suggest any scriptures. I'm willing to look them up. Thanks

P.S. I'm a s-l-o-w typist and I'me a newbie to chats, so I ask for your patience plz.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic that He would have been "defiled." What about the garden would have changed it that having a spear stuck in his side, or being wipped, or getting a crown of thorns, etc. wouldn't have done? Seems to me that one form of “torture” (that in Gethsemane) was coming from a different source. If something were to “defile” this “Sacrificial Lamb,” would it not be the blood brought out by sinners and Gentiles?

by the way, I tend to think that the atonement (if such a thing exists) would have begun at the beginning of His ministry, long before Gethsemane.

[_moksha]

Think of the Atonement as both a process and an event, that started in the Garden with the confirmation that the cup would not pass. It was from that point that all the actions, that eventually lead to the betrayal, the crucifixion and subsequent resurrection, arose.

[_Dezire2BWise]

I am posing my question in terms comparisons with Levitical system. Many practices under the law pointed to the Messiah. From my reading, I've noticed a thread of consistancy between types in the Old Testament and the fulfilment in things Jesus did in the New Testament. I think the garden emphasizes how Jesus steps up to the role of "goel" or kinsman redeemer, not the actual. After all, He petitioned the Father three times another acceptable way to redeem us. Earlier, He said that He always said and did what the Father told Him to do, so there was something else going on in the scene in the garden. There were certain qualifications to be the kinsman redeemer; one, was that the subject had to be willing. It wasn't just the torture of the cross that Jesus dreaded, rather it was the moment when, in my place, He bore my sin on the cross, and the Father turned away. God cannot look upon sin. True, a blood sacrifice was required, but for atonement the blood was obtained from a slain victim/sacrifice. It was n the cross, and not in the garden did Christ became the reality of the final offerings illustrated by the rituals on the Day of Atonement under the Law. [/i]

[_Inconceivable]

Welcome,

There are a number of things I suppose we could speculate upon.

Mormons are taught that Jesus paid for the sins of mankind in Gethsemane:

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

(New Testament | Luke 22:42 - 44)

The blood excreting from his sweat glands was due to pain he was suffering for the sins of mankind.

But really, in the scheme of things, what does it matter when, how and where - so much as it was done by Him for you? Neither you, nor the Mormons were there. If the atonement is what the scriptures say it is, we can agree that accepting the gift is of greatest import.

[_The Nehor]

Put simply, we have no idea how he did what he did. To be honest I'm still not sure exactly what he did. I do know he can take away my sins somehow and that he can also remove grief, guilt, and pain. I am incredibly grateful for it though.

It makes no sense that I can figure. I can look back at sins I committed and it's like someone else did them. In the end I can return to the Father and somehow he can say, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" and mean it despite the fact that my life bears no resemblance to the Savior's.

I do suspect that the Garden was the place it began. While the death of the Savior was gruesome and nothing like our depictions in art his was not a unique experience. It was a favored form of execution with many civilizations and at least thousands died from it.