Faith Oriented Thread for Believers of God or a Higher Power

[_moksha]

Mostly I find myself here on the defensive though. I don't usually set the agenda. With the exception of Coggins (and most of his threads tend toward politics) it is rare that believing LDS start threads here so what we are discussing is dictated by the OP. I will say that in my private religious life sentiments akin to, "Jesus thou Son of God have mercy on me." and "I can't carry this burden anymore, I give up, it's yours" are the bread and butter of my prayers and meditations. Church History, doctrine, etc. come up some in my studies but rarely are they the topics brought here.

I lament the fact that there are not more faith oriented threads. It is unfortunate that many believers (of various stripes)) are on the defensive, while there is a blending of others who are firm in their disbelief and still others who want to stick it to the Mormons, no matter what. With that mix it is hard to ever talk about what we believe or find helpful, without a pot shot being fired. But all of us have our own truths even if they are not shared.

Besides being a Mormon, I find myself being a devout progressive Christian, who receives a feeling of serenity each day during a time of prayer and meditation. During that time, I feel my divine spark being in touch with the Holy Essence and a love for the Universe. If you are not over riddled with skepticism, do any of you ever have a similar feeling?

If not, what are your beliefs?

[_Dr. Shades]

Faith-promoting threads will typically gravitate toward the Celestial Forum anyway.

If that's more your cup of tea, then by all means, be sure to check the Celestial Forum.

[_Blixa]

I don't know how much I can contribute Moksha, since I don't have any faith or believe in anything religious, but if you start some threads discussing these things broadly, I'll try to post usefully. The best I can do is stuff like my post in my webblog about James Turrell's art and Quakerism.

There are bits of Mormon history I find fascinating and not all of it is "negative" as you know from my earlier post on "heroes of the mountain meadows massacre" (by the way that was an incomplete list, I may write up a better version sometime soon). As much as I may truly despise some of the historical leaders of ldsism, I do find the lives, sacrifices and sincerity of members to be a very moving thing (and something which usually leads me to despise the leaders even more...). Maybe I can post a bit about those history bits at some point, too...

[_Yoda]

Mostly I find myself here on the defensive though. I don't usually set the agenda. With the exception of Coggins (and most of his threads tend toward politics) it is rare that believing LDS start threads here so what we are discussing is dictated by the OP. I will say that in my private religious life sentiments akin to, "Jesus thou Son of God have mercy on me." and "I can't carry this burden anymore, I give up, it's yours" are the bread and butter of my prayers and meditations. Church History, doctrine, etc. come up some in my studies but rarely are they the topics brought here.

I lament the fact that there are not more faith oriented threads. It is unfortunate that many believers (of various stripes)) are on the defensive, while there is a blending of others who are firm in their disbelief and still others who want to stick it to the Mormons, no matter what. With that mix it is hard to ever talk about what we believe or find helpful, without a pot shot being fired. But all of us have our own truths even if they are not shared.

Besides being a Mormon, I find myself being a devout progressive Christian, who receives a feeling of serenity each day during a time of prayer and meditation. During that time, I feel my divine spark being in touch with the Holy Essence and a love for the Universe. If you are not over riddled with skepticism, do any of you ever have a similar feeling?

If not, what are your beliefs?

Yes, I do have similar feelings. It is why I still have a belief in God and Christ, even though I am skeptical of the tenets of the LDS Church. It is also this feeling, combined with prior spiritual promptings and experiences I have had, that keep my faith in God alive, even though I'm not convinced that the LDS Church is the only way back to God.

At this point, I'm not comfortable sharing some of my experiences. They are personal and sacred to me, and I have seen potshots taken at Nehor when he attempted to share some of his experiences. I may be inclined to open up, depending on how this thread develops.

With your permission, Moksha, I would like to move this thread to the Celestial Forum. I would also like to place a preface on it.

This thread is for believing LDS, and for those who have a fundamental belief in a higher power.

If you do not share this belief, or you cannot be respectful to those who do, then please refrain from participating in this thread.

This is not a thread to debate the validity of spiritual experiences. This is a thread about sharing spiritual experiences and beliefs.

[_Canucklehead]

Can an atheist participate in this thread if I have faith in "humanity" rather than in a god?

I promise that I won't discuss the validity of spiritual experiences or mock anyone else's beliefs.

If you'd rather I didn't, Moksha or Liz, just say so. I don't mind.

[_Yoda]

Can an atheist participate in this thread if I have faith in "humanity" rather than in a god?

I promise that I won't discuss the validity of spiritual experiences or mock anyone else's beliefs.

If you'd rather I didn't, Moksha or Liz, just say so. I don't mind.

You're more than welcome to participate.

:)

Moksha can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're simply trying to keep this particular thread free from posters who tend to mock others' experiences. I don't see you as falling into that category, and I doubt Mok would, either.

[_Pokatator]

I have been reluctant to really put out my own personal beliefs because they are personal and I really don't want to be ridiculed and I am also lazy and I don't want to take the effort to defend them. They are mine and I am comfortable with them and some of it is difficult to explain.

I was as a child to about 35 years old everything Mormon. I was devout in my conduct and sincere in my search. I did everything Mormon, I gave, I prayed, I obeyed. I read all the right stuff from very young age. Through all that I never got (not once, or ever) a burning bosom, a confirmation of any kind that Joseph Smith was a "true" prophet, Moroni's promise never worked for me, that the BofA-BofM-D&C etc. was the word of God or was true. What I did get and keep was a full and firm belief in Jesus Christ as my savior. I know it is as hard to understand, to defend and explain as the Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon and etc. story. But it is what came out of that same process that was supposed to give me all that for Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon etc. belief.

I have been out of Mormonism for near 20 years and my beliefs have not changed about my savior but my beliefs have been confirmed that the Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon etc. is manmade and untrue. I am active Christian and I am comforable with it. I understand the atheist point of view and I realize that my stand is difficult to defend but I also think that atheism doesn't have a full explanation either.

I guess I am a gambler at heart, I am Christian and gambling that there is a savior, a life everlasting, etc. I am going to continure to stay with that bet. The atheist on the other hand is gambling that it doesn't exist and wagers that now. I like my life style, I like the way I live as a Christian, it is a good life that I hope tends to not tread on anyone else negatively, so am no threat to atheists or anyone else I just have bet my life differently than a Mormon or an atheist. If I lose the bet and I end up in the same place as the atheist so be it but I had a good life out of it and I acknowledge as that the atheist had a good life too, just in different paths. If I win the bet, I believe that God is just and good, and he does the judging not me, I believe that God will be just and fair to the atheist, the Mormon, etc., but that is his job not mine. It is his creation not mine.

Thanks for giving me this opportunity to opine.
Pokatator

[_sruggio]

Pokatator;

I was a convert at the age of 22. My method of conversion was not the way that anyone should do. I joined the LDS church to make my wife happy. She was raised LDS. I came from a normal “traditional Christian church”. The part of my “birth” church that I did not like was that the doctrines would change whenever we got a new preacher.

When I was a pre-teen it was preached as a sin to have a TV in your house. Movies were strictly forbidden. My family lived with my grandmother because we were poor. In 1947 my grandmother took a 4 month trip to NY to the farm that she was born on and still owned. Like most poor people my mother went out and bought a TV. (Seven inch round screen.) When my grandmother got back she was madder then you know what. Then the preacher died and we got a new one. The first thing that he moved into the parsonage was a TV. Now TV is no longer a sin. Up to the day my grandmother died she had two TV’s going all day long.

When I decided to join the LDS church, my minister cousins came at me like wildfire. They said that the LDS church was of the devil and that they didn’t believe in Christ. My grandmother called me the morning of my baptism and said “The devil has you for sure”. I went ahead and got baptized anyway. My wife and I went to BYU and of course I took religion classes. Bible, Book of Mormon, PGP etc.

The weird thing about my conversion was that I never received a testimony of the truthfulness of the church and its teachings. The reason I never has a testimony from the Holy Ghost is because I never asked for one. I went to church every Sunday for ten years. Was it true? I didn’t care. It made my wife happy. It taught Jesus Christ. For the most part the members lived the religion. And guess what, the doctrine was the same no matter where I lived.

After ten years of my attending the Gospel Essentials class, (heck I could have taught it) the instructor decided to show the movie “The Three Witnesses” 1960’s version. For those of you that have seen this movie, there is nothing sad in it at all. At the end the actors were stating the testimonies of each of the witnesses. I got this wonderful feeling in my chest and I started to cry. HEY I am a man from East LA where men do not cry! The way I tell people is, I believe that God was saying to me, “OK dummy you may be too chicken to ask me for a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon but I am going to tell you anyway.” I got lucky, if I had had a situation where my testimony was challenged, I would have fallen away.

Within a year my wife and I were sealed with our children in the temple. That was in 1977.

Now my testimony is on solid ground. I no longer “believe” that the church is true, I have a testimony of “spiritual knowledge” of the truth.

Pokatator, your final line says: “If I win the bet, I believe that God is just and good, and he does the judging not me, I believe that God will be just and fair to the atheist, the Mormon, etc., but that is his job not mine. It is his creation not mine.”

I don’t know if you realize it, but, that is strictly Mormon Doctrine. The rest of Christianity says that you will be in hell for guessing wrong.

Indeed God does love all of us. Jesus Christ will judge us by our actions and what is in our hearts. Even if you don't come back to the church, the Lord loves you and will judge you fairly.

Stan

[_Pokatator]

Pokatator;

I was a convert at the age of 22. My method of conversion was not the way that anyone should do. I joined the LDS church to make my wife happy. She was raised LDS. I came from a normal “traditional Christian church”. The part of my “birth” church that I did not like was that the doctrines would change whenever we got a new preacher.

When I was a pre-teen it was preached as a sin to have a TV in your house. Movies were strictly forbidden. My family lived with my grandmother because we were poor. In 1947 my grandmother took a 4 month trip to NY to the farm that she was born on and still owned. Like most poor people my mother went out and bought a TV. (Seven inch round screen.) When my grandmother got back she was madder then you know what. Then the preacher died and we got a new one. The first thing that he moved into the parsonage was a TV. Now TV is no longer a sin. Up to the day my grandmother died she had two TV’s going all day long.

When I decided to join the LDS church, my minister cousins came at me like wildfire. They said that the LDS church was of the devil and that they didn’t believe in Christ. My grandmother called me the morning of my baptism and said “The devil has you for sure”. I went ahead and got baptized anyway. My wife and I went to BYU and of course I took religion classes. Bible, Book of Mormon, PGP etc.

The weird thing about my conversion was that I never received a testimony of the truthfulness of the church and its teachings. The reason I never has a testimony from the Holy Ghost is because I never asked for one. I went to church every Sunday for ten years. Was it true? I didn’t care. It made my wife happy. It taught Jesus Christ. For the most part the members lived the religion. And guess what, the doctrine was the same no matter where I lived.

After ten years of my attending the Gospel Essentials class, (heck I could have taught it) the instructor decided to show the movie “The Three Witnesses” 1960’s version. For those of you that have seen this movie, there is nothing sad in it at all. At the end the actors were stating the testimonies of each of the witnesses. I got this wonderful feeling in my chest and I started to cry. HEY I am a man from East LA where men do not cry! The way I tell people is, I believe that God was saying to me, “OK dummy you may be too chicken to ask me for a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon but I am going to tell you anyway.” I got lucky, if I had had a situation where my testimony was challenged, I would have fallen away.

Within a year my wife and I were sealed with our children in the temple. That was in 1977.

Now my testimony is on solid ground. I no longer “believe” that the church is true, I have a testimony of “spiritual knowledge” of the truth.

Pokatator, your final line says: “If I win the bet, I believe that God is just and good, and he does the judging not me, I believe that God will be just and fair to the atheist, the Mormon, etc., but that is his job not mine. It is his creation not mine.”

I don’t know if you realize it, but, that is strictly Mormon Doctrine. The rest of Christianity says that you will be in hell for guessing wrong.

Indeed God does love all of us. Jesus Christ will judge us by our actions and what is in our hearts. Even if you don't come back to the church, the Lord loves you and will judge you fairly.

Stan

Hi Stan

Thanx for the response. I bolded a couple of things in your response. I don't mean anything pesonal but I have been told all my life to just ask, Moroni's promise is to ask. I asked and I asked. I have been told told as a child to ask and I have been told at FAIR to ask and now I only need to ask again here. Stan I have asked.

The next stage of this pattern will to tell me I didn't ask right, with a contrite spirit and etc. etc. I can't except that. I know my heart I asked with a contrite spirit, with fasting and prayer, with reding and rereading and with proper desire and on and on for years of my life. I got nothng.

The next stage will be to "keep on keeping on" or rely on someone else's testimony until I get one of my own.

With 35 plus years years of it I am done and for the last 20 years I have been in a much better place. I am glad it has worked for you, I don't begrudge that for anyone.

As to the other bold, I do realize that my comment is not truly biblical, I am not sure that that belief is solely Mormon though. I guess I have hung on to that concept to be able to put a lot of issues in an easier and softer place to deal with it.

I had my dear grandmother pass away about 2 years ago, a little 4 foot 10 inch firecracker but she was also a little Mother Theresa type too. She never harms a soul that I knew of. I had to deal with my beliefs in relation to her devout Mormonism. I came to the conclusion that God is just and God judges the heart and God does the judging. My standards or thoughts on it doesn't matter. I asked my grandmother several questions about God and Jesus very late in her life and her answers comforted me very much. But her answers were very, very Christian and fundamental at that basically not Mormon at all. To me she passed the Christian "test" without realizing it and inspite of being Mormon all her life. My conclusion is that she really never knew all that her religion taught and believed. She believed something from her heart, the part that gets judged.

Is she saved? I do believe so. Am I? I believe so. Are you? I believe it is very possible, it depends on your heart.

Thanks again Stan, nice visiting with ya!!
P'tator

[_marg]

This thread is for believing LDS, and for those who have a fundamental belief in a higher power.

This is a discussion board for all. That doesn't mean that everything one says should be accepted in threads, but pros and cons should be accepted in every thread. What shouldn't be acceptable are posts which are completely off topic/off point, and posts which are ad hominem fallacy, that is attacks on individuals as a diversionary tactic.

Apparently Liz, you don't want any questioning or anything counter to faith promotion in this thread. It's not as if you don't have a church to promote your faith freely. It's not as if there aren't boards for you to write on which promote your faith with no opposition allowed (apologist boards). But this isn't an apologist board, this isn't church, this is a discussion/debate board in which pros and cons of any topic are invited in any thread, at least I believe those are the rules on the main front page. There are faith promoting threads in the celestial forum in which people have not been bothered. But I don't think it right to specify that only one side can be argued, only anything faith promoting is allowed in any thread.

By doing so you will be using this board as an apologist board.

Let me remind you of the following:

"Mormon Discussions. . . Because we all want the truth.

Here is a place of free discussion. Whether you want to discuss the finer intricacies of doctrine, or whether you want to discuss the truthiness of the church in general, your word will be heard here.

Pro, anti, investigator, questioner, critic, apologetic, no matter what you call yourself, what you have to say, or what your agenda is, you have a place here. We pride ourselves on a minimalistic moderation policy, so that your voice is always heard."