Adam-God Theory

[_Tobin]

I know exactly what it says and would suggest to you that it is indeed YOU that is misrepresenting what is said there. It was I who posted the entire quote and pointed out that what you claimed simply was not there in spite of your continued insistence. The quote has absolutely nothing to do with Adam/God theory but rather addresses one of the basic teaching of the Church that ALL men have the ability to become Gods IF they are willing to do ALL that Christ asks of us to the best of our ability. God is our father and we are literally his children. He wants for us what He has himself, however it does not come without effort. This life is the test that we all must pass through to see who will and who will not DO what is necessary to become a joint heir with Christ and inherit ALL that our Father has to offer which is to become like HIM. This is what Brigham was addressing and not whether Adam is our God which he is not.

Again, I am uninterested in your misrepresentations. I can read the text for myself and know you aren't telling the truth (as I've already pointed out repeatedly). So you aren't going to convince me of anything when you do that and I seriously doubt you'll convince anyone else here either. You are welcome to have your distorted views that have no bearing on the facts. However, no one is going to take you seriously.

[_Bazooka]

Just to clarify, everybody posting on this thread is wrong in how they are reading the meaning of the same set of words?
Is that right?

[_gfchase]

I know exactly what it says and would suggest to you that it is indeed YOU that is misrepresenting what is said there. It was I who posted the entire quote and pointed out that what you claimed simply was not there in spite of your continued insistence. The quote has absolutely nothing to do with Adam/God theory but rather addresses one of the basic teaching of the Church that ALL men have the ability to become Gods IF they are willing to do ALL that Christ asks of us to the best of our ability. God is our father and we are literally his children. He wants for us what He has himself, however it does not come without effort. This life is the test that we all must pass through to see who will and who will not DO what is necessary to become a joint heir with Christ and inherit ALL that our Father has to offer which is to become like HIM. This is what Brigham was addressing and not whether Adam is our God which he is not.

Again, I am uninterested in your misrepresentations. I can read the text for myself and know you aren't telling the truth (as I've already pointed out repeatedly). So you aren't going to convince me of anything when you do that and I seriously doubt you'll convince anyone else here either. You are welcome to have your distorted views that have no bearing on the facts. However, no one is going to take you seriously.

You have called me a Liar and if I am a liar then so is Jesus Christ, for it is His doctrine that I boldly proclaim. There will always be those who, until they stand before the Savior themselves, will declare that his doctrine is something other than what it is. There are billions who accept the Bible as the word of God, yet there are more than 40,000 different Christian denominations, all declaring something different about what they find there. Add to that the uncounted individual interpretations and there are probably millions of different concepts about what the Bible says and all of that does not change the reality that there is only one truth. It is up to each of us to find and follow that one true doctrine of Christ and hold as fast to it as we can. So go ahead and call me a liar. It bothers me not, for I know on what road I travel in spite of the rantings and ravings of gnashing of teeth of those who would assault the truth to assuage their guilt. Simply because a group of like minded individuals band together does not make their cause just. They simply seek solace in each others company. If I never convince anyone here and I suspect that I will not, my written testimony will stand as a witness at the last day.

Jerry

[_Tobin]

You have called me a Liar

Oh, I am most definitely calling you out for that.

and if I am a liar then so is Jesus Christ, for it is His doctrine that I boldly proclaim.

No you aren't Jesus Christ. You may think you are, but you seriously aren't. And I imagine Jesus Christ would be an advocate for the truth. That is something you clearly are not.

There will always be those who, until they stand before the Savior themselves, will declare that his doctrine is something other than what it is. There are billions who accept the Bible as the word of God, yet there are more than 40,000 different Christian denominations, all declaring something different about what they find there. Add to that the uncounted individual interpretations and there are probably millions of different concepts about what the Bible says and all of that does not change the reality that there is only one truth. It is up to each of us to find and follow that one true doctrine of Christ and hold as fast to it as we can. So go ahead and call me a liar. It bothers me not, for I know on what road I travel in spite of the rantings and ravings of gnashing of teeth of those who would assault the truth to assuage their guilt. Simply because a group of like minded individuals band together does not make their cause just. They simply seek solace in each others company. If I never convince anyone here and I suspect that I will not, my written testimony will stand as a witness at the last day.

Blah, blah, blah. You don't have the truth on your side despite your tirade above. Anyone can pick up the John Dehlin:6 275, 276 and see you are ignoring what it says and distorting it. That means you aren't telling the truth about it no matter how many fits you have about it. So get over yourself.

[_gfchase]

You have called me a Liar

Oh, I am most definitely calling you out for that.

and if I am a liar then so is Jesus Christ, for it is His doctrine that I boldly proclaim.

No you aren't Jesus Christ. You may think you are, but you seriously aren't. And I imagine Jesus Christ would be an advocate for the truth. That is something you clearly are not.

There will always be those who, until they stand before the Savior themselves, will declare that his doctrine is something other than what it is. There are billions who accept the Bible as the word of God, yet there are more than 40,000 different Christian denominations, all declaring something different about what they find there. Add to that the uncounted individual interpretations and there are probably millions of different concepts about what the Bible says and all of that does not change the reality that there is only one truth. It is up to each of us to find and follow that one true doctrine of Christ and hold as fast to it as we can. So go ahead and call me a liar. It bothers me not, for I know on what road I travel in spite of the rantings and ravings of gnashing of teeth of those who would assault the truth to assuage their guilt. Simply because a group of like minded individuals band together does not make their cause just. They simply seek solace in each others company. If I never convince anyone here and I suspect that I will not, my written testimony will stand as a witness at the last day.

Blah, blah, blah. You don't have the truth on your side despite your tirade above. Anyone can pick up the John Dehlin:6 275, 276 and see you are ignoring what it says and distorting it. That means you aren't telling the truth about it no matter how many fits you have about it. So get over yourself.

I know how to read and my comprehension level is extremely high. You have chosen to believe something that is simply not said by Brigham and that is your right. You have the right to believe anything you wish. You seem to be getting angry. Typically when someone gets angry when trying to defend their position, they are most usually quite wrong and do not know what else to do. If you wish to cease the conversation, all you need do is quit posting.

Jerry

[_Tobin]

I know how to read and my comprehension level is extremely high. You have chosen to believe something that is simply not said by Brigham and that is your right. You have the right to believe anything you wish. You seem to be getting angry. Typically when someone gets angry when trying to defend their position, they are most usually quite wrong and do not know what else to do. If you wish to cease the conversation, all you need do is quit posting.

Again, I'm not talking about your ability to read or comprehend things. I'm talking about your willingness to distort the facts and misrepresent things to fit your agenda. And I assure you that I am not angry. I just think your behavior is childish and absurd. It is not something I take seriously and your arguments are not credible as a result.

[_Fence Sitter]

Jerry,

Have you read Conflict In the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young & Joseph Smith?

Bergera deals extensively with the subject and provides many many references to BY's doctrine of Adam-God.

[_grindael]

"gfchase" I see that you do not read much better than your friend. It does not say that the Adam who resided on this earth will the one to provide tabernacles for his spirit children but rather AN Adam or in other words another first man and woman. Adam and Eve was used figuratively. However every man and woman who lives to be worthy to become Gods including Adam and Eve will eventually bear spirit children who will be sent to an earth to also gain bodies just as has been done here. There will be a first man and a first woman on each world who would be AN Adam and AN Eve.

Jerry

I read just fine. Thing is, I comprehend what I read. And it is you who cannot seem to grasp what Young obviously taught. All your "testimony" can't change the facts. Young taught that EVERY Adam would do the same, that includes the Adam for THIS EARTH, genius. Of course you believe this is all "figurative", because it doesn't fit into your little preconceived notions of what you want to believe that Young taught.

He DID teach there will be a first man and first woman on each world would would be AN Adam and AN Eve AND that they would be the parents of both the SPIRITUAL children they bore in their pre-existence, and the children they would bear when the fell again on the new world they created. This is what you refuse to acknowledge which is clear and plain as day.

This is all very simple, easy to comprehend doctrine to anyone who just reads it without trying to deny it to themselves, or lie about it, like Charles Penrose, Joseph F. Smith & others keep doing.

But that won't change the minds of people like you, who cannot conceive of anything that will shake your little worldview of modern Mormon fantasy.

[_grindael]

The fact that you admit that you haven't read all of the posts above, shows that you don't want to know the truth, and just want to give your opinion and testimony, of which the former is uninformed and the latter is worthless to any discussion.

[_grindael]

If you really want to know about Adam-god, this is the best sermon that Young ever gave on it. I often see a paragraph or two quoted from it, but never the entire part of the sermon, (the 2nd half) that addresses Adam (the first part was on drunkenness). Here it is, the sermon published in the Deseret News June 18, 1873:

I wanted to make a few remarks upon the subject touched upon by my brother, [Joseph] but I shall not have the time. I frequently think, in my meditations, how glad we should be to instruct the world with regard to the things of God, if they would hear, and receive our teachings in good and honest hearts and profit by them. I have been found fault with a great many times for casting reflections upon men of science, and especially upon theologians, because of the little knowledge they possess about man being on the earth, about the earth itself, about our Father in heaven, his Son Jesus Christ, the order of heavenly things, the laws by which angels exist, by which the worlds were created and are held in existence, &c. How pleased we would be to place these things before the people if they would receive them! How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, AND WHICH GOD REVEALED TO ME–namely that ADAM IS OUR FATHER AND GOD–I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first woman upon the earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth. I have been found fault with by the ministers of religion because I have said that they were ignorant. But I could not find any man on the earth who could tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith.

Is it a great mystery that the earth exists? Is it a great mystery, that the world can not solve, that man is on the earth? Yes, it is; but to whom? To the ignorant—those who know nothing about it. It is no mystery to those who understand. Is it a mystery to the Christian world that Jesus is the Son of God, and still the son of man? Yes it is, it is hidden from them, and this fulfils the Scripture—“If our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost,” who have no faith, and who pay no attention to the Spirit of God. These things are called mysteries by the people because they know nothing about them, just like laying hand on the sick. Is it a mystery that fever should be rebuked and the sick healed by the laying of the hands of a man who is endowed with authority from God and has been ordained to that gift? “Oh yes,” say the ignorant, “we know nothing about it,” That is true, but where is the mystery?

Will the ignorant receive the truth when they hear it? No, they will not, and this is their condemnation, that light has come into the world, and they choose darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. That is the fact in the case. What is the mystery about it? They do not understand invisible things. Ask the wicked, “Do you know anything about the laying on of hands?” “oh yes, such a man”—a man who is wicked in his whole life—“has the art of laying on hands for the curing the tooth—ache, fevers, wounds,” &c.; and now, in fulfillment of the words of the ancient prophet, thousands of people seek unto “wizards who peep and mutter,” &c., but they will not seek unto the living God. I can say to all the inhabitants of the earth that before what is called spiritualism was ever known in America I told the people that if they would not believe the revelations that God had given he would suffer the devil to give revelations that they—priests and people—would follow after. Where did I declare this? In the cities of New York, Albany, Boston, throughout the United States and in England. Have I told the people that as true as God lived, if they would not have the truth they would have error sent unto them, and they would believe it. What is the mystery of it?

The Christian world read of, and think much about, St. Paul, also St. Peter, the chief of the Apostles. These men were faithful to and magnified the priesthood while on the earth. Now, where will be the mystery, after they have passed through all the ordeals, and have been crowned and exalted, and received their inheritances in the eternal worlds of glory, for them to be sent forth, as the Gods have been for ever and ever, with the command–”Make yourselves an earth and people it with your own children?”

Do you think the starry heavens are going to fall? Do the Christian world or the heathen world think that all things are going to be wrapped up, consumed, and annihilated in eternal flames? Oh fools, and slow to heart to believe the great things that God has purposed in his own mind!

My brother said that God is as we are. He did not mean those words to be literally understood. He meant simply, that in our organization we have all the properties in embryo in our bodies that our Father has in his, and that literally, morally, socially, by the spirit and by the flesh we are his children. Do you think that God, who holds the eternities in his hands and can do all things at his pleasure, it not capable of sending forth his own children, and forming this flesh for his own offspring? Where is the mystery in this? We say that Father Adam came here and helped to make the earth. Who is he? He is Michael, a great prince, and it was said to him by Eloheim: Go ye and make an earth.” What is the great mystery about it? He came and formed the earth.

Geologists tell us that it was here millions of years ago. How do they know? Adam found it in a state of chaos, unorganized and incomplete. Philosophers, again, in talking of the development of the products of the earth, for instance, in the vegetable kingdom, say the little fibres grew first, then the larger vegetation. When this preparatory stage was completed then came the various orders of the animal creation; and finally man appeared. No matter whether these notions are true or not, they are more or less speculative.

Adam came here and got it up in a shape that would suit him to commence business. Father Adam came here, and then they brought his wife. “Well,” says one, “Why was Adam called Adam?” He was the first man on the earth, and its framer and maker. He with the help of his brethren, brought it into existence. Then he said, “I WANT MY CHILDREN WHO ARE IN THE SPIRIT WORLD TO COME AND LIVE HERE. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state, I was faithful, I RECEIVED MY CROWN AND EXALTATION. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children THAT WERE BORN TO ME IN THE SPIRIT WORLD to come here and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery?

Now for mother Eve. The evil principle always has and always will exist. Well, a certain character came along, and said to Mother Eve, “The Lord has told you that you must not do so and so, for if you do you shall surely die. But I tell you that if you do not do this you will never know good from evil, your eyes will never be opened, and you may live on the earth forever and ever, and you will never know what the Gods know.” The devil told the truth, what is the mystery about it? He is doing it today. He is telling one or two truths and mixing them with a thousand errors to get the people to swallow them. I do not blame Mother Eve, I would not have had her miss eating the forbidden fruit for anything in the world. I would not give a groat if I could not understand light from darkness. I can understand the bitter from the sweet, so can you. Here is intelligence, but bind it up and make machines of its possessors, and where is the glory or exaltation? There is none.

They must pass through the same ordeals as the Gods, that they may know good from evil, how to succor the tempted, tried and weak, and how to reach down the hand of mercy to save the falling sinner. The Lord has revealed his gospel and instituted its ordinances that the inhabitants of the earth may be put in possession of eternal life. But few of them, however, will accept it. I have preached it to many thousands of them who are naturally just as honest as I am, but through tradition there is an overwhelming prejudice in their minds which debars them of that liberty I have in my heart. They would be glad to know the ways of God, and to know how Jesus is, and to reap the reward of the faithful, if they had the stamina, I will call it, the independence of mind necessary to embrace the truth, to say, “I know this is true, and if there is no other person on the face of this earth who will defend it, I will to the last.” But this is not in their hearts, it is not in their organization, consequently they do not manifest it. What mystery is there about it?

None whatever. What is the mystery in Jesus being the Son of God and at the same time the son of the Virgin Mary? You know what the infidels say about this, but their words are no worse than the practice of many in the Christian world.

I do not want to be found fault with, but if I am it is all the same to me. There is no mystery to me in WHAT GOD HAS REVEALED TO ME, or in what I have learned, whether it has been through Joseph, an angel, the voice of the Spirit, the Holy Ghost or the Spirit of the Lord; no matter how I have learned a thing, if I understand it perfectly it is no mystery to me. It is like making one of these pulpits, or a house like this. This is no mystery to me, I dictated it, and a great many say it is a great piece of architecture to have a single span, so large as this roof and composed of wood that will sustain itself. But it is no mystery to me. I know the strength of the materials and how to place them together. It is no mystery to me to build a temple or a common house. But you take a gentleman or lady who was never beyond the confines of a densely populated city, who never saw wheat grow, and who never saw cattle in the fields, and it is a great mystery to them to see them. Why? Because they never saw such things before, and they know nothing about them; but it is no mystery to those who know all about such things.

Do you think it any mystery to angels to know how the various organizations are brought on earth? Not the least in the world. There is no mystery in all this to the Gods, no mystery in them to the prophets and apostles whom they send, and to whom they reveal them; it is all plain, everyday common sense, just as much so as with anything else in the world—we understand it.

Some may say to me, “Why, Brother Brigham, you seem to know it all.” I say, Oh no, I know but very little, but I have an eternity of knowledge before me, and I never expect to see the time when I shall cease to learn, never, no never, but I expect to keep on learning for ever and ever, going on from exaltation to exaltation, glory to glory, power to power, ever pressing forward to greater and higher attainments, as the Gods do. This is an idea that drowns the whole Christian world in a moment. Let them try to entertain it and they are out of sight of land without a ship, and if they had a ship it would have neither sail, rudder nor compass.

“What,” say they, “God progress?” Now, do not lariat the God that I serve and say that he can not learn any more; I do not believe in such a character. “Why,” say they, “does not the Lord know it all?” Well if he does, he must know an immense amount. No matter about that, the mind of man does not reach that any more than it comprehends the heaven beyond the bounds of time and space in which the Christians expect to sit and sing themselves away to everlasting bliss, and where they say they shall live for ever and for ever.

If we look forward we can actually comprehend a little of the idea that we shall live for ever and for ever; but you take a rear-sight, and try and contemplate and mediate upon the fact that there never was a beginning and you are lost at once. The present and the future we can comprehend some little about, but the past is all a blank, and it is right and reasonable that it should be so. But if we are faithful in the things of God whey will open up, open up, open up, our minds will expand, reach forth and receive more and more, and by and by we can begin to see that the Gods have been for ever and for ever.

Some philosophers have tried to reveal the first cause. I would change the position of the whole affair. I would plant my position in the ignorance of man that undertakes to prove or show the existence of a first cause. He had better go to work and prove himself a fool to begin with and then stop, for all his reasonings, arguments and researches with regard to the first cause only prove that he is a fool. Excuse me for this rough expression, perhaps it would be better to say that he comes far short of knowing or understanding himself in the least degree that he is lost in ignorance of himself. Is this the fact? It is. We can know nothing until we learn it, and when we come to a knowledge of facts they are no mystery to us.

Take one of these native Navajo women down south here into a factory and show her the machinery for weaving blankets, and if she has never seen anything of the kind she would laugh at such nonsense. Says she, “That is not the way to weave blankets, why do you not tie your web up to the limb of a tree, fasten the other end down, and then take a stick and do just so? That will never weave a blanket.” By and by she sees the blanket finished, but it is a mystery to her, and she can not understand anything about it, because she has not learned it. It is so with the whole human family.

You will excuse me for detaining you a little longer than usual. I wanted to ask the brethren and sisters if they did not think my brother, Joseph Young, pretty good. He is nearly seventy-seven years of age and had a severe sickness last winter. Do you not think he is pretty hale, and doing pretty well? I think he is. I like to see him here. I know that he has been trying to tell the people with regard to the things of God for fifty years past. If I were to live and learn as I have for forty years past—since I have been in this church—for a thousand years, I should only have just commenced to learn the great lesson of eternity.

I do hope and pray—and I want you to listen how I shape this prayer, instead of praying to my Father in heaven in the name of Jesus to make you and me faithful—I pray that we Latter-day Saints may be faithful to the covenants we have entered into with our Heavenly Father and with one another, and to live our holy religion., for we do know how. I need not ask the Father to make us faithful any more than I need ask him to come and sow our wheat for us, not a particle, for we know all about it. Be faithful, do right and live so as to be worthy of life everlasting. Amen. (Deseret News, Vol. 22, No. 308, June 18, 1873. Brigham Young; discourse delivered in the New Tabernacle, Salt Lake City; Sunday Afternoon, June 8th, 1873. Reported by David W. Evans).

Reposted in case you missed it which you obviously must have.