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Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:51 am
by _Yoda
Wade started a thread in the Terrestrial Forum asking former members of the Church to make a list of the doctrinal points that caused them to leave.
I am an active LDS member, but this part of the LDS doctrine has always caused me concern. I have merely shelved it, and have really not received any type of response when asked about the following.
I would like to keep a respectful discussion. I am especially interested in feedback from apologists who can share insight. All, however, are invited to participate.
Here is my quote from the other thread:
One concept that has bothered me since I was a kid, was the whole concept of not being able to progress to other kingdoms. On the one hand, we preach that families are forever, but, if you "fail your earthly test", then you are destined to be separated from, not only God, but your family, for all eternity. To me, this has always seemed like the ultimate hell. How could a loving Heavenly Father, who is all powerful, set up a system where you are unable to continue to learn, grow, and progress? If we believe in an eternal life, wouldn't it make sense that we would be able to continue to learn, grow, and understand new things? Shouldn't everyone be given that opportunity?
Should someone who is basically a good person....someone who has a good heart....someone who works his/her butt off for their family, is a good neighbor, and basically magnifies the ways of Christ really be separated from his/her family for eternity because he/she is a member of a church other than the LDS church?
Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:21 am
by _cinepro
For many reasons (including the ones you mention), I'm pretty sure there will be progression upward through the kingdoms for those who are willing to make and keep their covenants.
Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:38 am
by _Inconceivable
liz3564 wrote:One concept that has bothered me since I was a kid, was the whole concept of not being able to progress to other kingdoms.
Hi liz,
I'm sure you've read this several times, but here it is again:
Quote:
I believe and accept the comforting statement of Elder Orson F. Whitney:
“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”
(Jas. Faust - Conference April 6, 2003)
So yes. So long as a parent is a faithful Mormon, you can eat drink and be merry in this life. In other words, this isn't necessarilly the time to prepare to meet God.
Non Mormons need not apply.
The only catch here, liz, is that this statement can be only as true as what came out of the other side of Smith's mouth.
Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:32 am
by _Yoda
So, Inc, do you interpret Orson's talk to mean that merely being sealed in the temple is enough to obtain Celestial glory?
I was always taught that once this life is over, you forfeit your right to repent, and that you have basically forsaken the Savior's sacrifice.
If you are a non member when you die, then you can be taught the gospel and someone can be baptized for you via proxy. Therefore, the nonmembers can basically have their cake and eat it, too. It's the members who fall short who are screwed. That's why I always envied my nonmember friends.

Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:36 am
by _Yoda
cinepro wrote:For many reasons (including the ones you mention), I'm pretty sure there will be progression upward through the kingdoms for those who are willing to make and keep their covenants.
Is this a concept you have simply come to accept through personal revelation and/or hope, or were you also thinking of Inc's reference?
Thanks to both of you for your responses.

Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:13 pm
by _Inconceivable
liz3564 wrote:So, Inc, do you interpret Orson's talk to mean that merely being sealed in the temple is enough to obtain Celestial glory?
Here is the thread that goes pretty deep into this doctrine I noted:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1742In a nutshell, this doctrine flies in the face of nearly all scripture to this point.
Once again, Liz, if your MIT mom and dad live faithful to their covenants and endure to the end, you can live however you want in this life. But after you die, you will essentially be hounded by Mormons forever until you accept the church and then go through the repentance process (note the deliberate choice of the word
tenticles).
You recall Smith's statement about going to the depths of hell to retreive his only legal wife?
So.. families are forever. Whether we want to be part of the family or not.
But the doctrine is contingent upon whether there is someone faithful in your family tree.
Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:42 pm
by _cinepro
liz3564 wrote:cinepro wrote:For many reasons (including the ones you mention), I'm pretty sure there will be progression upward through the kingdoms for those who are willing to make and keep their covenants.
Is this a concept you have simply come to accept through personal revelation and/or hope, or were you also thinking of Inc's reference?
Thanks to both of you for your responses.

Answered: Will there be Progression Through the Kingdoms?
Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:14 pm
by _Black Moclips
Joseph Smith also taught that there are kingdoms higher than the celestial. So if there is no inter-kingdom upward movement, then even CK dwellers are SOL.
I can't reconcile the Plan of Salvation as taught in church with my personal notion of fairness, equality, and progression. I thought about this last night as I watched Apocalypto on TV. I thought to myself "Why wasn't my one shot test of mortality in the jungles of south america a thousand years ago?" Is it possible to have the same "test" living then, where life was about pure survival, and now in 2009? Then multiply that by a couple billion other examples of primitive peoples and situations where life was fleeting and random. It just makes NO sense to me. I can't accept that we all here for this one, brief moment, with such inherent unfairness and variability, and somehow eternity hinges on it and it can qualify us for CK living and eventual Godhood. There is too much to learn and experience for there to only be one shot.
The only "plan" that makes sense to me is one of reincarnation or muliple mortal probations, where one continues to come to earth, learn new lessons, learn new experiences, and pay off their debt of kharma through cycles of living (reaping what you sow). After a thousand or so lifetimes, I could see someone learning and progressing enough to ascend or move on to greater things. I believe the man Jesus was someone who had advanced and moved up the ladder through various lifetimes. He then showed what becoming one with God could do, by dying and living again. But for me, the important part is that Jesus was special because he lived and learned it. In LDS theology, Jesus was God before ever coming to earth, and that doesn't make sense to me. If we are like Jesus, in that we are spirits born of the father just like Jesus was, why not stay up in heaven for a gazillion years, until we achieve godhood in the pre-mortal realm, and then go have a mortal experience to complete the process? Instead, we shoot on down here, 99% go to some crazy time and place and have a life of death and hardship and never hear of the one thing they were supposed to get while down here-the gospel. Doesn't make any sense to me. If Jesus was born a God pre-mortally, and then born on earth as a half-God, how can we relate to that? How can we be amazed at his goodness and miracles? He was a God for crap sakes. However, if he truly was like us, and lived and learned through lifetime after lifetime, until he became the special man he was, then wow, what a story and what an example.
But its also possible that there isn't anyone out there listening or caring to what happens to us. I hope that's not the case, but I realize its possible.
Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:39 pm
by _cinepro
Black Moclips wrote:"Why wasn't my one shot test of mortality in the jungles of south america a thousand years ago?" Is it possible to have the same "test" living then, where life was about pure survival, and now in 2009? Then multiply that by a couple billion other examples of primitive peoples and situations where life was fleeting and random.
The resolution to this question is the idea that God knows each of us individually, and we were all individually placed by Him into the exact circumstances that would provide the exact test that we needed.
The biggest issue that presents (for me) is that God set up His Plan in such a way that individuals can drastically alter the nature of the "test" experienced by others. Certainly, we can hypothesize a God that knows all things, so He knows that a child will get hit by a car at age 6 and thus go straight to the CK. Or He knows that a certain person will be a serial killer and end the mortal "test" of 10 other people before it otherwise would have ended.
But the number of variables involved in any particular event happening is beyond what I would suggest even a God could comprehend; I have a hard time believing that there is even any "plan" to which family people get born into.
Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:19 pm
by _Black Moclips
cinepro wrote:The resolution to this question is the idea that God knows each of us individually, and we were all individually placed by Him into the exact circumstances that would provide the exact test that we needed.
Yes, I undertand this the TBM response, but I don't buy it anymore. Because really, the test is supposed to be to the same for everyone - live the gospel, receive the necessary ordinances, and endure to the end in obedience. Yet, He purposefully places an ultra super majority of spirits (virtually all) in situations where they will never experience the test. Add to that, the billions of children who have died underage and get a free ticket so to speak. Why would He do that? Oh, but we have temple work to cover those people, and so technically, they are still benefitting and included in the plan. However, that does not seem equitable. Because first of all, if you are dead, and then you awake in the spirit world, you already have and unfair advantage and have bypassed a key principle of the whole plan to begin with - the veil of forgetfulness. Not knowing about your previous life and having to have faith in an pre or after life. The person in the spirit world already knows there in life after death, and is now no longer subject to the same conditions we are in the flesh. Yet they can choose to accept the ordinances and everything is just fine? No alcohol of coffee or drugs? Sure I will covenant to obey the word of wisdom, why not? There aren't such things here in the spirit world anyway. (unless there really is spiritual cocaine, and then wow, just wow.....). Anway, that just doesn't seem like a fair process to me. If the Plan of Salvation really is exactly like they teach it in church, and this life is really that important, then the best thing for everyone is to just die before turning age 8. (Rhetorical point and in no way advocating such a thing directly or indirectly).
I also agree with your comments regarding even a God being able to understand all of the future decisions of billions of individuals interacting with each other over thousands of years. It just doesn't make sense. In my view, I guess I don't think its necessary that He does know all the future, because everyone is here to learn and is free to choose. God, under my current view, rarely acts directly in the events of humans. Certainly he is working for their welfare in some respect, but the consequences of kharma naturally guide the flow of human experience and progression. I think He would know general trends and have a plan to help people progress. He would work many through certain disciples and spiritual teachers across the world and in all religions, to help elevate people's thinking. But he doesn't help me obtain a better paying job, protect me when I'm driving home from church, or make unhealthy food "strengthen and nourish" my body. We are largely left alone to learn and grow.
Of course all of this is just speculation on my part. But I enjoy thinking about different possibilities.