The Virgin Birth

[_Yoda]

BC, as I have stated before, you and I are at a complete impasse on this issue. Neither one of us are going to convince the other because we're both too darned stubborn. LOL

We'll have to simply agree to disagree.

[_Brackite]

Hello,

The Following information is from The Classic ‘Anti-Mormon’ Book, The 1997 Edition of 'The Kingdom of the Cults’ Book:

[Page 228]

The Virgin Birth of Christ

One of the great doctrines of the Bible, which is uniquely related to the supreme earthly manifestation of the Eternal God, is the doctrine of the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ. In one very real sense, this doctrine is indissolubly linked with that of the Incarnation, being, so to speak, the agency or instrument whereby God chose to manifest himself. Time and again the Bible reminds us that Deity was clothed with humanity in the manger of Bethlehem, and Christians of all generations have revered the mystery prefigured by the cryptic words of Isaiah the prophet:

Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. . . . For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6).

The apostle Paul refers numerous times to the deity of our Lord, declaring that “In Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9).
Attempts to minimize the Virgin Birth of Christ or to do away with it altogether, as some liberal theologians have energetically tried to do, have consistently met with disaster. This is true because the simple narratives of this momentous event recorded in Matthew and Luke refuse to surrender to the hindsight reconstruction theories of second-guessing critics.


[Page 229]

Some persons have, on the other hand, decided upon a middle course where this doctrine is concerned. They affirm its biological necessity. In a word, Matthew and Luke, who had access to eyewitness testimonies (Mary, Joseph, Elizabeth, etc.), never really believed the teaching as recorded; rather it was a pious attempt to endow Christ with a supernatural conception in order to add glory to His personality. Regardless of how distasteful the unbiblical concepts of liberal and so-called neoorthodox theologians may be concerning the Virgin Birth of our Savior, no group has framed a concept of the Virgin Birth doctrine in the terms employed by the Mormon prophet Brigham Young. Mormon doctrine concerning the Virgin Birth of Christ was first delivered in the pronouncements of Brigham Young and has been consistently found in the teachings of all General Authorities throughout their history. It has never been contradicted and consequently represents the doctrine of the Mormon Church.


...

[Page 231]

The Scripture is explicit in declaring that this conception took place while Mary was “espoused to Joseph, before they came together.” Matthew, therefore, flatly contradicts Brigham Young in no uncertain terms, declaring: “She was found with child by the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:18).


(Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults (Revised), Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1997 Edition, Pages 228-229.)

Actually, the doctrine concerning the Virgin Birth of Christ, which was 'delivered in the pronouncements' of Brigham Young, is also contradicted within the Scriptural Passage of Alma Chapter Seven, Verse Ten, in the Book of Mormon. This Book back on Page 206, already quoted Part of Alma Chapter Seven, Verse Ten, along with Part of Alma Chapter Seven, Verse Nine. Here is that Part of this Book:

[Page 206]

The Bible declares that the Messiah of Israel was to be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2), and the gospel of Matthew (chap. 2, v. 1) records the fulfillment of this prophecy. But the Book of Mormon (Alma 7:9, 10) states:
“…the son of God cometh upon the face of the earth. And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem, which is the land of our forefathers….”
The Book of Mormon describes Jerusalem as a city (1 Nephi 1:4) as was Bethlehem described as a separate town in the Bible. The contradiction is irreconcilable.


(Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults (Revised), Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1997 Edition, Page 206.)

This Book failed to mention the second Part of Alma Chapter Seven, Verse Ten.

Here is Alma Chapter Seven, Verses Nine and Ten in the complete Form:

Alma 7:9-10:

[9] But behold, the Spirit hath said this much unto me, saying: Cry unto this people, saying -- Repent ye, and prepare the way of the Lord, and walk in his paths, which are straight; for behold, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, and the Son of God cometh upon the face of the earth.

[10] And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

It is important to note that the town of Bethlehem is Not mentioned anywhere in the Book of Mormon.
The town of Bethlehem is also Not mentioned anywhere in the Book of Isaiah.
Joseph Smith basically had many Chapters from the Book of Isaiah, being basically copied within the Book of Mormon.
More on this in likely another Thread.

According to Alma Chapter Seven, Verse Ten; Mary was indeed a Virgin, who was overshadowed and conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost.
And God the Father did Not have any physical relationship[s] with the Virgin Mary.

[_Daheshist]

The Reason why so many Mormon men are "ok" (enthusiatic even) about the "Mary had sex with God the Father" doctrine taught by Brigham Young and a few other Mormon leaders, is because they expect to become God the Father's themselves, and select "choice" (read: sexy) daughters to send down to worlds, then go "down" themselves to those worlds and have FUN FUN FUN with their spirit-daughters. Yes...really! I served a mission, and spoke to many, many Mormon men about this. They look foward to the incest with baited breath, I can assure you! I always considered the "Mary Had Sex With God" doctrine to be UTTER blasphemy!!!

[Guest]

I can assure you! I always considered the "Mary Had Sex With God" doctrine to be UTTER blasphemy!!!

You cannot fathom Mary having had Sex *PERIOD* and you believe, as the Catholic do, in the Virgin Birth — and you call yourself a "Daheshist". Here is what I just found:

http://www.daheshville.com/forum/showthread.php?t=698

And, since say you've been banned from Daheshville, here is a direct quote from a book that Doctor Dahesh himself wrote:


" And what beckons deep thought are these fairy tales in which all the people of Earth were carried away, and especially the Christians who are connected to me, is in that they say that I was born from the Virgin Mary, meaning that I sprang from the Holy Spirit, for what merit would I have — if only they realize — if I was born by a spiritual power and by a Heavenly Miracle, for then I would be enjoying a Godly Power that would protect me from committing [ al danaaya ] (lowly acts?), and places me over humans, and eliminate from me the aspect of being human, and then there wouldn't be any merit in my being correct and honest [...] and for calling towards... righteousness and to be steadfast in religion and fearing the last day.

"And merit, all the merit would be mine if I was born from two parents and upon me was applied what would apply to every human being, only then would I have all the merit ... that is if I was able to overcome my earthly temptations... and called for righteousness... after I was able to practice (it) myself and made it bow to my will, without negligence overwhelming me or weakness that makes me fall on my face before the temptations of Earth. And that is what makes me wonder about the weak-mindedness of the millions who the truth missed, so they believed the hoax and abandoned the true fact which they were obligated not to forsake."

I dunno about you, but it seems that Dahesists cannot believe in the "Virgin Birth."

[_Seeker]

The Reason why so many Mormon men are "ok" (enthusiatic even) about the "Mary had sex with God the Father" doctrine taught by Brigham Young and a few other Mormon leaders, is because they expect to become God the Father's themselves,

I don't get it. Don't you Daheshists believe that the ultimate goal is rejoin the great Divine collective? So that would make sense that Mormons believe to "become God the Father" themselves. Perhaps NOT while on Earth, but certainly as they "ascend" ... or as your "Spiritual Fluids" as you call them ... rise. So what's the problem?

I'll tell you what the problem is: You believe in the Virgin Birth Myth and you won't even accept what Doctor Dahesh (who was speaking for Jesus in his book) clearly wrote. And for all we know, a Divine Spiritual Fluid entered the equation during the conception of Jesus, the result of a natural process between Joseph and Mary. But you won't even accept that idea.